Looking for Advice

[Greek]

She also said last night that she thinks we need to start talking more if we are ever really going to get things back. That we have to talk more about what we are thinking/feeling and what is bothering us or making us angry.

I tend to be suspicious of people who have been caught in their EA and then start saying what all needs to be done "if" they are going to get things back. It takes such a short time for the chemical induced brain to get fogged up and even if she had good intentions, she'll start craving to have her drug fix.

Sandi ~ the first time your wrote this (re:going deeper undercover), it really threw me, b/c I saw the same post from Gutw'ing as "she's coming around". Not that I can't be wrong and I don't have first hand acquaintance with this part of a breakup...but really? Does it have to be that she's going deeper undercover? I guess with Trust in the toilet, though, Gutw'ing should at least have that on the radar, so I get that. Just chiming in that I didn't read it that way.

The main thing that sticks out in my mind is that she didn't show remorse. That is why I think she may try to go deeper with her EA and cover it up more. She underestimated you the first time around, so the next time....she'll make sure you don't uncover anything.

Coach and I have three children. Over the years, we've caught them in a few tangles with the Truth. We've observed three distinct reactions to being busted. The eldest was "Yup, I did it. Sorry I got caught" right out of the shoot. Only now YEARS later are we hearing how he wishes he had not let us down. Middle child - instant regret and lifelong carriage of that regret. Youngest - piles on lies to try to get out of being busted, through tears and I love yous (she's 12 so we're not sure how this will shake out over time). My point is ~ everyone has a rate at which the full measure of what's been done and culpability sets in. I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that b/c Gutw'ing's W is not remorseful NOW, it's not coming down the road. MHO.


Greek

[Greek]

No, sent him an e-mail on facebook for not everyone to see.
Its all done now.

Have you a copy of this email? Ask for it, if not.
Greek

[sandi2]

Sandi ~ the first time your wrote this (re:going deeper undercover), it really threw me, b/c I saw the same post from Gutw'ing as "she's coming around". Not that I can't be wrong and I don't have first hand acquaintance with this part of a breakup...but really? Does it have to be that she's going deeper undercover?

I can see why a person would see that statement from his W being a sign of hope, but I have thought hard and can't remember a single time that the WAW in an EA didn't try to continue some sort of communication with her OM.....after she had been caught. I don't mean to imply that she'll never stop with the EA....but she'll have to try at least once more. I think it is part of the profile (for a lack of better description). The fact that she continues to be very angry at him (especially over the FB) instead of being embarrassed & ashamed of her actions....is not a good sign. Even when they feel ashamed, they'll try to continue the EA....but when she is so angry at her H, that's really not a good sign that she is ready to stop.

When the WAW is in an EA, she is emotionally D from her H and in most cases begins to see herself as already being "faithful" to her OM......by doing things...like not allowing her H to see her undress, etc. So the fact that he caught her in her lies is not enough for her to stop dead in her tracks and make a huge turn-around to start working on the M. Some women even promise to start going to MC or whatever, but that is more of a cover-up or to pacify the H, than anything else. And that is what throws the H off guard.

These are just a couple of things that has stood out to me since she told him that they needed to talk more:

I know for a fact she is looking at his facebook account a few times a day and it appears to me to some subliminal communication. She writes on FB "I wish you were here" and he is posting on FB on how he wishes there was snow

she says I should have the courtesy to let him tell his wife if it gets to that point.

Whenever the WAW in an EA is still "feeding" her addiction, then she is not through with OM. In that next quote, I read that she is still thinking there is a "possibility" of getting to that next step with OM.

The only time I saw her say anything that even looked a bit remorseful was when she admitted "she" had been naughty this year....and that she did not deserve her H's gift. But she may have simpy admitted it, but not felt the sorrow.

Greek, if I had not experienced having the EA, I would never believe some of this stuff, but sadly, it is true. I don't want Gutw'ing to set himself up for disappointment by being too trusting.

I appreciate what you said about your children. Different people do act in different ways when they are caught, and I sincerely hope I am wrong about this one, but "usually" she will try to keep the EA or find another man b/c she is addicted. If one of your children were on drugs (God forbid) and got busted....he/she may be sorry and may even make promises....but when that craving kicked in, they would start looking for some way to get a fix. Getting caught isn't enough. That's why there has to be some sort of long term plan. Talking is a good place to start, but I just don't think she is sincere right now. She's still fighting him about OM.

So, GW, I hope you are reading this and I'll add this last quote to you.

Question: on the phone bill which right now only I have access too...do I offer to open up the access to that? The account is actually in her name, but I have the id and password for the account. So with a phone call, she could get that changed and lock me out...so do I show some good faith and offer to keep the phone records open/shared?

I say no. B/c of reasons I just explained. I read something on Dr. Harley's website that he and his W of many years did not trust each other to have friends (of the opposite sex) that did not include the other spouse. Of course, you would have to read what all he had written, but it made perfect sense to me. I know you are so eager to get your R back on track, but need I remind you that it did not get here over-night and it will take a long time to get healthy. You are expecting too much too quickly and she is simply trying to get you to settle down. So don't be trusting. In fact, she knows that she does not deserve your trust, so don't apologize or even try to hide the fact that you are not prepared to trust her. Don't you think she should have to prove herself for a while? Why should you "show good faith"? That is just the point.....she has not been faithful, so I think she needs to show that she can be trusted again. She needs to be the one working hard here.

[Greek]

Greek, if I had not experienced having the EA, I would never believe some of this stuff, but sadly, it is true. I don't want Gutw'ing to set himself up for disappointment by being too trusting.

I appreciate what you said about your children. Different people do act in different ways when they are caught, and I sincerely hope I am wrong about this one, but "usually" she will try to keep the EA or find another man b/c she is addicted. If one of your children were on drugs (God forbid) and got busted....he/she may be sorry and may even make promises....but when that craving kicked in, they would start looking for some way to get a fix. Getting caught isn't enough. That's why there has to be some sort of long term plan. Talking is a good place to start, but I just don't think she is sincere right now. She's still fighting him about OM.

Putting it that way, Sandi, makes perfect sense to me. I understand now why you suggested Gutw'ing's W might be going deeper undercover. I understand this better now.

For Gutw'ing's sake, I sure hope you're wrong, though. But I'm glad you're here to keep him mindful

Cheers ~
Greek

[gutwrenching]

Sandi/Greek - thanks for the insight, encouragement, assessment. I am not trusting right now, in fact, I know this is going to be the biggest stumbling block for me. I realized yesterday when we were having a real good day that I still don't trust her a lick and that if I can't get past that, then there is no hope for a future. I told her the same thing basically the night before, but it really hit home with me yesterday.

First question to Sandi: having experienced the EA and having gone deeper undercover, what caused you stop going undercover and stop the EA? I honestly believe my W will try to go deeper undercover. She gets smarter and smarter each day on how I get the info I have. Getting hard to stay a step ahead. I suspect if they are or are going to communicate, that it will be with e-mail on the account that she has that I have now let her I know about...just to put her on edge a little and wonder if I have access to it.

Cell phone bill: Got it. She hasn't brought it up, I won't either. Just watching to see if she cuts me off of having access or not.

Remorse: I haven't seen any real remorse yet. The only time I really saw some was BEFORE I exposed the EA and she was in what she called a moment of weakness and allowed me to hold her and she said she didn't deserve to feel good and was almost in tears. I may have misquoted about the next step. She never specifically asked/said something about telling him vice wife if they communicated, what she did was lash out when I said I would tell OM's wife...she lashed out at how weak that was, why wouldn't I let him tell his W. I said because I didn't trust that he would and that he would tell the truth, why should I believe a word he says. I have seen signs of guilt and she has admitted a few times that she made a mistake, let things go too far, basically admits she is the one that pursued it

Earning trust: I understand and see your point on earning trust. But not something I can say to her right now I don't think cause I don't think it would make any difference. I don't know that she is really that interested in patching things up right now. I suspect she wanted me to call it all off when I exposed the EA, that would have made it easy for her. She had checked out, she told me last night she is tired of trying and tired of getting no where and afraid of getting hurt again

[gutwrenching]

Update: I would like to say yesterday was a very good day, but I know better than to trust the signs. There was no anger that I sensed yesterday, so either she was trying or acting. We all hung out in the house most the day. I did a lot of my own thing and just routinely checked in on W and kids and helped out with a few things she was looking at. I made coffee and took W a cup which got a surprising response: "thank you, I really appreciate that"

Later in the day, I was in the basement with one of the children and sent text as to dinner plans which led to a fun/flirtatious discussion on texting.

The whole family went out to dinner, kids went to bed, W and I watched a movie in bed before going to sleep.

Before the movie she asked me how was today for you. I said good. I asked her the same question and she said good, said she enjoyed hanging out with the girls and enjoyed our bantering/talking back . I didn't really push or ask much, she wasn't offering up a ton. She comment that I might not have noticed but that she had left her computer and phone out of the room while we watched a movie that she was trying to do better. I told her i did notice and appreciate.

I still wonder if she is or is going to strike up e-mail contact or possibly a pay as you go phone or a work phone call. One thing she did say to me that was pretty odd, was that she suspects at some point the OM is going to think this is all too silly and call her at work and that if he did, she would be sure to tell me.

We are talking about going skiing together for a day this week. I asked if she wanted to spend the night and she said no.

I have no idea at this point if she is trying or acting or...

[luvless]

You just don't know...you can trust your gut but you just don't know. Keep working on you!

Don't pursue too much.

[gutwrenching]

Certainly don't think there was any communication today...W in bad mood, admits it. As I told her, something just seems "off"...which immediately put her on the defensive thinking I was implying something about OM, which I wasn't. But, she is still being respectful, just kind of off about everything in general.

[sandi2]

Hi GW, you contacted me on my thread and asked for the list of Do's & Don'ts. My computer is acting up and won't let me do the "link" thing. Need to have this worked on, but can't do without it long enough..... Here you go......

DO'S AND DON'TS FOR THE LBS:

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise. (JMHO)
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

[gutwrenching]

Thanks Sandi. I need to refer to some of these, some doing ok on, others not quite as much.
Question on the do not spy. What about my situation, having exposed the EA and (like you) suspect the communication continues despite the boundary. I think they are just more clever. I highly suspect it just down to e-mails on an account I can't access and possibly some instant messaging/chatting type stuff, but that couldn't be much because we have been around each other so much.
Do I try to spy on the e-mail or do I let that go (that would be a 180)?

In the past couple of days, I have been able to see the titles of 2 e-mails that have come to W...not able to see who sent them and not able to read them. But the titles are suspect: "should have thought of this sooner" and "morning"

I do believe the EA has been throttled way back due to the confrontation. OM lives thousands of miles away and I've taken away all the easy ways for them to talk. But I think it hangs on by a thread via e-mail.
Is this one where I just have to wait/hope that they decide to end things, or??

And there is a big opportunity today for communication later today via e-mails or chats on the iphone as she going to get her hair done...so that is like 3 hours with no threat of me being around...I would love to ask her/r the remind her about no communication, but at this point, that would probably not be the right move