Hope and heartache

[ClingingToHope]

Gucci, that's a strong 2x4 and perhaps today I deserve it.

I have snooped extensively. In fact, I am trying to stop because it doesn't make me feel better and I've gotten all of the answers I think I need.

I am over there after school for an hour when the girls get off the bus. I have searched long and hard for anything. I'll summarize what I've found.

First time I even considered an OM was after a friend of mine spotted her at the county fair in August -- I moved out in May -- with another man. They were leaving and got on his motorcycle to go.

That floored me.

In September, when we had our one positive relationship talk she said that he was just a friend. Yes, I understand that is what they all say.

About three months ago I found on her search history the name of the only other serious boyfriend she had before me. If it's the right guy, he lives two hours away and is a doctor. I cleared the search history on both of her browsers and she hasn't searched again -- but she may have already found her answers.

The house is now littered with romance novels and she keeps sex toys under the bed. As far as I know, she didn't have them before I left. I may be wrong but at least she didn't keep them too close when I was there.

I got on her FaceBook page several times. There are very, very, very few posts from anyone. She mostly uses it to play the games -- Yoville, Farmville, etc. She did get a couple of FB emails from a former classmate in a little town 30 minutes away. From the way it was worded, it was a jokey thing you'd send someone that you wanted to get to know better. The next message was a couple of weeks later and he was complaining W hadn't returned his text from a week earlier.

I also looked through all of her friends and found a guy in a town about 30 minutes from her who is single and pictured next to his motorcycle. That's the guy. She would have met him through her best friend, who also lives in that town. Now, her best friend is also a very good friend of mine. In fact, she set us up in the first place. I'd be surprised if she set up W with one of her drinking buddies -- but you never know.

Biker dude looks to be about 10 years older than W and a little pudgy. Not really her type, but then again who knows anymore. I went through his pictures and he's got a lot posted. He's a townie and most of the pictures are either of him with his bike or sitting at a bar with drunk women and buddies. There are no pictures of W. She always has attached herself to life of the party types though because she's very reserved -- a wallflower.

Checked her search history. Back at the end of summer, she searched an interesting thing -- a motorcycle retreat in Sturgis. Again, connection to biker dude.

Lately, the only interesting things I saw were her checking for second jobs or stay at home jobs, online education sites and -- this was tough -- a Christian Singles site -- I'd assume you actually have to be single to use their services -- Match.com and SpeedDate.com.

Fast forward to today. She wanted me to check something on the computer for her, I did and checked the history quickly and again there was SpeedDate.com, but no other history. She cleared it for the first time -- or perhaps something happened to the computer and it got cleared. W is not very computer savvy. The history on the other Web browser is untouched. There was nothing new there.

Anyway, she was busy this morning trying to set up D10's computer and not paying attention. So I stepped into the kitchen and picked up her Blackberry.

I looked through her phone numbers and the number of biker dude is in there. All of the rest of them are female numbers except for mine. I looked through her phone calls. He did call her on Dec. 22. She called him back last night -- that's a concern.

There was only one text between the two, from him, I couldn't find her outbox. It said, Sounds Good, Merry Christmas.

If there's anyone it's this guy, but there's no long string of hot and heavy texts, no steady stream of calls.

That's all I've got.

Also, I'm not in a situation where she suddenly wanted out. This was a three year process where I thought I was doing the right things and instead was pushing her away.

I've really tried to pull back as much as possible since Oct. 6 when she told me she would have filed for divorce if she had the $1,200.

I added up the presents she bought today in my head. She spent at least $600 -- a notebook computer, an American Girl Doll. She's been broke for the past month and now I see why.

I've always been torn on what I've found. In a way, discovering an OM would be a relief in a way. It would explain why I'm still living in limboland and it would be the final straw for me to seek the D.

It also would be extremely painful.

The only other things I'm considering are point blank calling her best friend and asking her to level with me about this biker guy. That would probably backfire. She'd likely lie to me -- her allegiance to W is stronger -- and then tell her.

Everyone keeps asking about an OM and I go through a lot of threads where people deny, deny, deny only to get found out. Usually phone records or computer stuff trip you up and there's no smoking gun that anything is happening other than an occasional phone call.

Now I'm going to post what went on this morning and get some more advice.

[ClingingToHope]

OK. DBers, here's a synopsis of what happened and what's happening later. Please chime in if you have time.

Went over to the house to go through presents. It was a blast. W spent big bucks on the girls, which might explain why she's been so broke lately.

She was smiling, laughing, we caught eyes a few times.

Then she was working on setting up D10's notebook -- the big gift. And having problems so she asked me to help. I searched for how to get the right codes to set up the wireless and asked her to come read it.

We sat there very close and I actually had my hand on her back and she didn't pull away. Earlier she used my knee to pull herself up.

Yes. I know. Reading too much into things.

She had to take a shower so they could over to her mother's house and I stayed until they were ready to go.

She asked when I wanted the girls. I said 5 p.m. She said, well, we're eating at 3, your welcome to come ... hesitating ... if you don't already have plans, and then you can just take the girls home.

I asked if she wanted me to and she said you can come.

Now, she may just be looking to stay later and not have to drive them, she may be looking to duck out and see a possible OM -- see earlier post. She may be looking to be nice. She may even be looking to see if I had plans already.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that one of the major mistakes I made with W was not fully embracing her family.

Since we split, I've seen her mom exactly three times and haven't seen her younger sister at all.

So here's a two-hour chance to shine.

I know, whack me with 2-by-4s.

Here's my thought. In DBing, it says every opportunity is a chance to show the WAS what she is missing. That is what I'll do. I'm not going to hang around her or the girls. I'm going to catch up with MIL and SIL. We haven't talked in so long the conversation shouldn't get stale. I'm going to assume the role in the family -- at least for a couple of hours -- that I always should have embraced.

I told W way back in March that I finally got what unconditional love meant. It meant if I love W then I love her family, warts included. I'd never been like that. I'd be nice to them when it suited my needs and whine about them when they needed my help.

I know I can't win her back today. In fact, I know the odds are still incredibly stacked against me and that -- most likely -- a divorce will be filed on or before Mother's Day.

I also know I'm supposed to be unavailable in LRT. I've been in it consistently since Oct. 6 and pointedly got on with my own life and the couple of times she offered help or something from the house, I rebuffed it.

But I keep wondering how do you build a bridge that W can cross back if she is having doubts about the single life. This is a small chance to build that bridge or at least show her a bridge is available.

I totally understand the weak aspect Gucci, and the second invitation to Chicago was weak. The first one was polite and a test.

The ultimate power play still is available to me and that's to file for a D on my own. I don't believe she thinks I'd do that. But I don't want to use it as a tactic. I want to use it when I'm absolutely sure there's nothing left and she is just going to cake eat forever.

Perhaps accepting the invitation this morning was wrong and perhaps going to dinner is wrong. If it is and things just get worse then I'm exactly where I was when I woke up yesterday morning -- on my way to getting a D.

[ClingingToHope]

OK. Wrapping up the day. Spent four hours at W's mom's house. I talked to MIL several times. Joked with SIL. She caught me up on all the happenings at college.

MIL liked the note I included with her gift. SIL thanked me for the card.

Dinner went well. We all had a little wine.

After it got a bit tiring. D7 was pretty excited to have me around so she got a bit out of control.

I tried to spend time in rooms without W -- focus on talking to everyone else.

Finally, W started packing up and asking about logistics. She asked if I could take the dog home. She wanted to visit her best friend, who lives in a rural town.

Now, it is the same town that the biker dude lives in so it's possible she was lying to me and the whole invitation was a ruse so she didn't have to drive the girls to me and then turn around and go back.

This is a weakness in my life. I'm always assuming the worst. It's why I tend to not take chances. The optimist would take her at her word. I mean, I'd been preparing to fill my time without the girls until I was invited to spend time with W's family. So perhaps instead of staring at four walls she set up time with her best friend. Besides I should only worry about things I can control.

On the way I out I gave everyone a hug -- including W, which I know is pursuing, but I figured it was a pursuing weekend so why stop now. She rubbed my back -- I don't know what -- if anything -- that means.

And I can control how I appeared to W and I was happy with how the day went. D10 said after that I seem to like the family so much better now. I said I had no reason to dislike them before and I was wrong for not embracing my role in the family.

Look, I know I'm going to get some 2x4s here for having my head in the sand and appearing weak. I hope overall there were more positives than negatives.

If there is any doubt in her mind or if any doubt creeps in, perhaps she'll remember this day -- the whole family together. It was a great day. It's the way holidays should have gone but haven't for at least five years -- because of my issues.

D7 and D10 had great days -- and ultimately, 20 years from now they will remember the effort I made even if we do D.

If my head is in the sand and there is an OM or there's no change in her iron will, then I'm at the same point I was yesterday, a separated husband on the D train.

I know I have a long, long, long ways to go in detaching. I've actually gone in reverse over the holidays. There's just so much emotion in this damn month.

W texted me to make sure we got home OK with the blowing snow. I texted back we were fine and asked how her friend -- who is also my friend -- was doing. No answer.

With Christmas out of the way, it's back to LRT. No calling, texting unless it's kid related. If it wasn't for DB, I'd be planning on ways I could build on today's interactions. I know now that if ANY seeds were planted I need to back waaaaaayyyyy off and see if they grow.

There are several things she'll need to talk to me about in the next few weeks. Taxes, summer camps, I'll let her come to me.

I'll quietly renew my lease for six more months.

Now the really bad part about the day. On the way home I felt like a drug addict. It was the most time I've spent with W since moving out and there wasn't one cross moment. It didn't feel forced because I -- mostly -- accepted everything that happened and didn't let petty emotions get in the way.

Again, on the way home, I emotionally crashed. I have the girls for the next two days so we came back and opened even more presents. D7 has been a bit out of control all day and was doing it again. I tried to discipline her, her ADHD cropped up and eventually she bit me and I lost it a bit. Then I felt really, really bad and I just broke down in front of both girls.

I'm better now. It's amazing the highs and the lows of the day. I had no idea even yesterday it would work out like this.

[ClingingToHope]

Wake up today almost with a Limboland hangover. The day with W and the girls was like a drug and now I'm going through withdrawal.

W called to say I could have the girls next Saturday to take to Chicago since today is so crappy. She said roads were so bad she was stranded at her friend's house for the night.

I soooo want to call her friend and verify the story. But what does it matter, really? We are still on the D train. I almost feel like the only way I can turn the page and get my pride back is to file for the D myself. I feel so weak and taken advantage of.

Yesterday will forever be the last Christmas we were together as an intact family. At least it was a good one and I didn't overreach or force an R talk. It'll eventually be a good memory.

I do not know how you successful LBSs handled this. I'm just at 7 1/2 months and I'm still having days like this. Dottie, the DB counselor, said if I wanted my marriage to work, I needed to strap in and be prepared to wait 18 months or longer for this to work.

I don't know if I have that kind of strength.

[luvless]

((((CTH)))))

all I can offer you right now is a hug but I do know how you feel.

[gucci loafer]

Clinging,

I really don't want you to believe I am giving you a 2x4. I realize that it may be very hard to come to grips with reality when in these situations..

I do think that we are on to something with the biker dude.
The evidence is taking us in that direction. One thing I am sure of.. There IS someone else she has her sights on. Her friend is her cover. My guess at this point is the biker dude because of what you have posted. He lives near the friend, she was with him at the fair, she was searching about Sturgis, she called him right before Christmas, his number is in her phone.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.........

You have little chance to bust this divorce if you don't have the guts and the fortitude to get to the nuts and bolts of this OM. Secretly you are LOSING her respect because she KNOWS deep down inside what she is doing is wrong. Since you are allowing her to lie to you and not call her on it, then she secretly can't respect you.

You will begin to earn your respect back when you quit letting her sidetrack you based on her LIES of what she is doing.

As far as what you say about you are no worse off with what happened yesterday.. Again, you are acting like you are in denial.. You are only allowing them more time to get CLOSER, which in my opinion is YOU going backward. Going backward isn't the same as no worse off or going forward.


I wouldn't contact the mutual friend. It never works.

Hire a P.I. or have someone you know follow her or whatever else you need to do, but it would be in YOUR best interest to get to the bottom of this. You have already shown that you may not want to believe what you find out, so be aware. You have tried to "downplay" this biker dude. How can you downplay your wife being seen by someone you know, caught leaving with another man on his bike? Come on Clinging let's wake up here. This is how women in affairs act. It isn't how women who have male friends act when they are married. I think you do secretly know that is true.

She again gave you a red flag when she told you she couldn't come home last night because of the weather.. Another red flag buddy...


Remember that I am here to HELP you get this saved. In order for you to do that you must start with the FACTS.

I am telling you as a friend Clinging, there is an almost certainty that she is interested in someone else. I believe it is imperative that you do all you can to prove otherwise...

The evidence isn't always by email, computer or phone. Especially when they are scared that you know how to snoop on those things.


What you did yesterday was fine. Remember that you don't need to be a mean person to be strong. Smoke this affair out and get it in the open. She will deny, lie and deflect. Don't fall for that anymore.

[Norm914]

I do not know how you successful LBSs handled this. I'm just at 7 1/2 months and I'm still having days like this. Dottie, the DB counselor, said if I wanted my marriage to work, I needed to strap in and be prepared to wait 18 months or longer for this to work.

I don't know if I have that kind of strength.

My heart goes out to you buddy; I know just how you feel. How will this end? When will it end? It seems interminable.

When I first came on this site and people were talking about “detaching” I couldn’t imagine how in the world I could do that. But I’ve done it. Still, however my sitch turns out, I know it’s going to be a long road. And I still have moments when I don’t think I have the strength to face what will undoubtedly be months and months of this sitch.

In those moments I remind myself that “this, too, shall pass”. We’ll come out of this, CTH. We aren’t the first to travel this road. Others have made it through. So can we. Believe that.

[gucci loafer]

Come on guys...

The faster you let go the faster they come back. Shouldn't your goal then to be to let go as fast as you can? By putting things into your mind such as it may take 18 months or longer or that it may take months and months and months, isn't good self talk.

Women are attracted to confident men, EMOTIONALLY STRONG men, decisive men and men who are sensitive (to her feelings).... Stop the emotionally weak talk. Act as if you are emotionally strong. I suspect you are.

Trying to hang in there to win them back doesn't work very well. The guys who reconcile will almost always tell you that it wasn't until they let her go and stepped out of the way that they found out that that is when the woman comes back.

Wouldn't your best answer then be to work as fast as possible to let go? It doesn't take detaching to let go. It takes discipline and logic. (those are both things that men are usually good at understanding and doing)


Do what WORKS guys. Do what works.

[mishka422]

Gucci, as usual, is making very good points.

The only thing I will add is that not only do women not like weak men, we also don't like feeling like we are being played. Putting on a show to her family was a sort of game. It does sound like you enjoyed it and found that you had been too hard on them in the past but that was only after you had already made the decision to put on the show. Trust me, she knows that is why you were there and it won't make you look any better in her eyes.

Just my opinion of course, but after being played for years I have sort of mastered picking out the gamers from those who are sincere to start with.

[gucci loafer]

Very good Mishka...

He can take care of those issues AFTER they start talking about reconciling. First he needs to get this to a level playing field. He is allowing her to have all the cards in this game when it isn't what is needed or what works.