Positive developments? #2

[jon2911]

This is why I say she may need to believe that FIL has got things right: imagine what it would take to believe that FIL's take on the world is wrong. It might mean admitting that he was wrong about MIL, but she has passed away, so that damage can never be repaired. In other words, if FIL is 'wrong', then both of those matters (crazy mom/not grieving) become a kind of a betrayal of your W's mother, so they are likely to be extremely sensitive.

Wow. Just like the rest of your post, this is very insightful. She didn't talk to her mom for 6 months after the D, then didn't want to be with her when she was dying. She told me "I said goodbye to her a long time ago." I had to force her to fly out for MIL's last week, then she stayed in the hotel room the morning MIL died. This confused me so much at the time.

She can't deal with the MIL memories, or admit that FIL's was wrong. Or that his view of the world is wrong.

I wonder if there's another reason why she doesn't want you to attack FIL - isn't hard attack FIL's own personal way of doing things? And by attacking back in that manner, wouldn't that make you like him?

What's your feeling about this? Is it possible that she wants you to *not* be like him? After all, it sounds like you weren't like him when you and W were first together.

No, I wasn't. Early in our dating, she said "I've never known a man like you, you not only have passions, you actually act on them." FIL told me "I had these ethereal dreams of changing the world, but that all ended when I got married. Now you need to make money".

I guess I thought it was possible to do both, but had no idea it would be this hard.

She also said she loved how spontaneous I was. The ACOA book said children in those homes learn to never be spontaneous, because they don't know how the parent will react.

To this day, W looks shocked when she makes me angry and I don't explode like FIL would. Every she brings D up, she gets really apprehensive, but I listen calmly. I think there's a balance there, but I don't want to act like him.

I suppose my question is, what is your sense of how your W feels about the times when you've acted more like your FIL in the past, and how does she respond when you are (in attitude) more like you were when you first met (i.e. big contrast to FIL)?

This is a great point. It feels like she wants me to be EXACTLY like him. But she wouldn't have married me if she did. I guess deep down inside, I've believed the conventional wisdom because I hear it so much. She must really want someone just like FIL, so it was a mistake to marry me.

I need to start thinking of specific ways that I can NOT act like FIL and see how she responds.

I thought it was encouraging to hear that BIL had asked your W about how she has dealt with the grief over your MIL's death, and particularly that she repeated this coversation back to you. It's a kind of acknowledgment on her part, even if the subject is still unaddressed.

I hadn't thought about that. She didn't tell me what she answered, so I assumed she just blew him off. You're right, it is encouraging. She's at least thinking

It also sounds like BIL has clear insight into the dynamic. It's a happy coincidence that your MIL described your FIL as a dry alcoholic, and that your BIL is an addiction recovery counselor. It's also good to hear about how well SIL dealt with MIL's final illness. Are you in contact with them? They sound like a real positive in this situation, and may have much insight to offer, and, a relationship with your W through which that may bear fruit.

W has forbid me to contact them. I need to for Amends (step #9), and mentioned it in August, but she blew up. I decided it wasn't worth it at that time. But what do I have to lose now?

SIL was a great source of advice and encouragement early in our separation. She told me "I'm seeing a lot of the same behaviors in her that I saw in my mom when she left".

After a couple months, SIL asked me to stop calling her worried that W would stop talking to her if she knew we were talking. Her family's on egg shells as well. I don't want her to feel ganged up on though.

Might be about time to make that call.

Overall, this has been a good wake-up call. I've spent a lot of time feeling sorry for myself after the recession ruined my corporate career and finances, at least in the short term. Time to set some goals and stick with them.

[dday101798]

Hi jon,

Ok, here's what I'm getting. I think there just might be some internal 'war' within your W as to what defines a man of quality. Ceratinly, she's used to FIL, as you say black and white, stuck in wrought and probably has everything so down to a routine up to and inlcuding what time he picks his nose.

You on the other hand, and as proven with the flowers, provide as you note, spontenatey and perhaps a fly by the seat of your pants type life that she thirsts for. BUT, her rearing tells her that is wrong. It tells her there's no security in living life as it comes. And that to me is why she went back, that security.

This whole story of yours couldn't be more iconic to Romeo and Juliet if I tried.

Her headaches are CLEARLY linked to a psychological issue stemming from the D of her parents. And I would certainly think that there's never going to be a medical cure no matter how much daddy warbucks fronts the bill.

As far as 'confronting' him. It was not my intent to suggest an all out "attack". Merely, as I feel and you confessed, you kind of just sat there and took it and not stand up for your beliefs. Take the case in point of saving your M. Will you let him stand in the way? I think not.

[Goodfight]

Hi Jon,
I agree with DDay, I believe it in some type of internal war within your W. I'm so happy that she called an apologized for being cold the night before and also happy that she accepted the flowers and thanked you. I believe you are moving along great. If I sent my H flowers he probably would get mad. I know how you feel as far as FIL. My IL's have been in the middle of our separation and still are causing problems. I believe they are telling my H what to do and he is afraid to stand up to them. Plus all of his lies that he has told (God only knows), he doesn't know how to get out of them or I really believe we would have reconciled.

[jon2911]

I texted W yesterday "Thanks for telling me, it made me smile and I'm glad you like them". Response: ":)"

This is hard, because it made me feel really good. I even started making too much of it. Maybe she'd let me visit before Christmas? I'm not tied down the next couple days.

No. I don't need to read too much into it, other than I really shouldn't be in LRT mode like I was considering. But it did help me remember the fun part of romance and why we get into these crazy relationship things in the first place.

[jon2911]

This whole story of yours couldn't be more iconic to Romeo and Juliet if I tried.

Her headaches are CLEARLY linked to a psychological issue stemming from the D of her parents. And I would certainly think that there's never going to be a medical cure no matter how much daddy warbucks fronts the bill.

Wow, really? I need to check that story out again.

I like what you said earlier about proving FIL wrong, but in my own way and on my own terms.

W called tonight while I was in band practice, I talked to her quickly but had to go. She texted "No emergency, just wanted to chat for a second. Have a good night :)"

Positive interaction I think.

I took some time to pray and fast today, it's hard to believe that God is still in control of this. It's amazing how much taking away a comfort like food helps me realize what's under the surface. A lot of fear and anger. I feel like my whole life I've been constantly on the verge of depression, but I keep moving and medicating.

[dday101798]

Definately sounds like positive little interactions. Let her make them, don't chase it and go with the flow!

EDIT - And another question if I may: Did your W ever get a chance to make ammeds with her mother before her passing?

[River]

Dear Jon

I think in another thread at some point you questioned the use of terms such as 'WAW' 'MLC' and so on because they tend to make people into objects. I agree. Those formulations can be helpful in getting a handle on situations, they inform our encounters, but must also be modifed by them. I value that core to DB: the try it -- reflect -- did it work? Yes: repeat, No, try something different approach. My own posts are made in the light of that. I like this forum 'we're separated, now what?' because (for me) it's less categorizing than the 'MLC', 'WAW' type forums. I like the 'now what?' bit especially: an invitation to keep trying stuff.

I'm glad Dday and Goodfight hear that war within your W. That's the sense I get too. In the light of their comments and yours, let me recap the war as I understand it:

i. W is brought up by FIL who, as Dday says, sounds black and white about everything. But the difficulties start when FIL's seemingly perfect M falls apart - the black and white worldview is shaken. Maybe, for W, this was the first sight of FIL acting out of line with his own moral precepts. She may experience this as a betrayal by FIL.

ii. The D happens, and FIL goes into meltdown: his rigid worldview can't deal with the situation.

iii. Alongside that inner moral confusion, W has to make a choice on loyalties. She goes with FIL and demonizes MIL. This is a massive act of trust in FIL. The internal war is underway.

iv. W 'assumed the role of mom', or perhaps 'assumed the role of wife' is better - it was FIL that she really had to look after (not kids). Sounds like your C is onto this (the 'emotional incest' book). This might help in understanding the loyalty bond that exists between them (as you say, W 'fiercely defends FIL's every move, even when she hates most of them').

v. Now comes a loyalty test: she's sided with FIL, and he promises W that he won't remarry immediately (which would intensify the split loyalties), but then he does so anyway. She may also experience this as a betrayal by FIL.

vi. W's new role as caretaker for FIL is simply too much, and perhaps the headaches provide a valid excuse to get her out of this. But she doesn't turn her back on that part of herself: interesting that she went on to train as a nurse. More interesting still that (once again) she dropped out. In time, FIL recovers.

vii. W meets you. You're not like FIL at all. You and W fall in love. FIL tells you that you're no good for his daughter unless you give up being you and start to become like him. More material for the war: W wants to marry someone unlike FIL, FIL responds by trying to make you the same as him (and to some extent, you try to do that). W's inner war must be raging.

viii. You marry. MIL becomes terminally ill. FIL cannot and will not face the situation. W follows his example (again trusting FIL's worldview). Again, the war within W must be intense over this: W perhaps felt at some deep level the questionableness of FIL's actions here.

ix. Things become difficult between you and W. It's now FIL's turn to 'save' W (just as she had saved him when he broke up with MIL). Step-MIL and FIL promise a return to a secure family unit for W, where she can effectively be a child again, and she can let go of her feelings of her responsibility - it's like a return to a time before FIL's D. Indeed, SMIL said 'you need to leave him, come back here, let us take care of you'. They're infantilizing her. But it's complex, because as you say, 'They convinced her that the headaches were my fault, and they could fix them. They were wrong.' That may have felt like a further betrayal to W. She keeps trusting FIL, and he keeps letting her down. He promises everything, but can only deliver one thing: money. (Interesting that she has such an expensive illness: it both stops her from working, and pushes her caretaker (be it you or FIL) into a postion of financial responsibility for her.)

Ok... hope I've got the story right so far. How then does that pan out in your relationship with W?

First up, what did W originally like about you? You write:

Early in our dating, she said "I've never known a man like you, you not only have passions, you actually act on them.

You add that FIL told you

I had these ethereal dreams of changing the world, but that all ended when I got married. Now you need to make money.

When I first read this, I only saw the 'passions' bit. On re-reading I noticed how central the 'action' part is. I like what Dday said about the idea of a 'man of quality'. What is it that you and FIL have in common? You both act on your beliefs. Yours may be passions, his maybe be fear (or money), but the common factor may be the action. I think the flowers are a nice example of you acting on your passions. You felt it, you acted on it, she liked it. You didn't explain yourself - didn't even sign the card. I guess the formula in this case was something like action + passion=spontaneity.

So that's a question to you - does that stuff about action sound right to you, or is it something else? I think this matters because you say:

'It feels like she wants me to be EXACTLY like him. But she wouldn't have married me if she did. I guess deep down inside, I've believed the conventional wisdom because I hear it so much. She must really want someone just like FIL, so it was a mistake to marry me.'

Maybe the idea of a common denominator between you and FIL is helpful here. In terms of acting on things, maybe she does want you to be exactly like him. But in terms of content, not. It's like she wants the same structure, but with different content. A redeemed content.

It's evident in what you write how far your FIL had influenced your 'content' - e.g. 'I went off to Seminary to keep furthering my career, because I could already feel the pressure from my future father-in-law about how much I should be making. I still wanted to work in the church, but thought having a Master's would help make the kind of money I needed.' There's a lot about money and career there, and also the phrase 'the kind of money I needed' is interesting - what's the benchmark here - how far is it related to what W is accustomed to?

You also write

'everything in our new marriage became about proving it, that she wasn't a spoiled brat, that I could make something of myself.'

It's funny, I can see from earlier posts how she might have been seen as a spoiled brat, but reading about how she looked after FIL for the year after his D makes me feel quite differently. She seems traumatized, someone whose world fell to bits, who did everything she could to put it right, but who ultimately just couldn't take the pressure.

This takes me to my other question. I've asked about what W likes that you and FIL have in common, but now I want to ask about what W fears that you and FIL have in common. You say:

To this day, W looks shocked when she makes me angry and I don't explode like FIL would.

So maybe anger is one thing she fears. But I'd be interested to know what you think W fears most? Because when I look back to when her illness started, it may have been triggered by the D, or by feeling overwhelmed, but my intuition is that it was FIL's emotional meltdown. Because when he melts down, the whole world(view) melts down with him. I'm guessing that it's what he fears, and also what she fears. But maybe she fears it in you too. It's interesting that you mentioned in your last post about how you've always been struggling depression, fear, and anger. Those are also the forces that FIL battles with. Sorry this is lengthy, but my question is, how has W reacted in the past when it's looked like you might slump into depression (or when you have)? I'm asking, because I wonder if she fears that what happened to FIL (the main man in her life melts down and she has to take charge, but can't cope), might happen to you. This may be way off, but I'd be interested to hear your response.

W being looked after / looking after others seems to be deep in all this. FIL and step-MIL want to look after her; 'crazy mom' is the person who failed to look after her; she had to look after FIL (but couldn't stick it); she started nursing (ditto); and now you're DBing in an attempt to care for her. And then there's what MIL said:

MIL told me that W refuses help and will not let things go. "If you're going to be married to her, you'll have to figure out how to help her, because she won't let you." Still haven't figured out how.

That's the paradox - she massively demands certain types of care (medical, tax, financial etc.), but refuses other types (emotional). Perhaps refusing the latter kind is why she wants to prevent you from contacting SIL.

It's unfortunate that she's told you not to contact SIL. I'd take seriously SIL's concerns that W might stop talking to her. There is some movement there after all: W is talking to SIL and BIL, she hasn't cut off that line, and she is even talking to them about stuff that matters like how she responded to MIL's death. That's a real ray of light, and not to be overlooked. Also, you don't want her to think you've betrayed her trust by contacting - betrayal of trust is what FIL has done (destructively) throughout. I appreciate that this is a very difficult situation.

One final thing - W might have tried to detach herself from MIL and identify with FIL, but in separating from you, it's MIL that she's emulating, and as your SIL told you 'I'm seeing a lot of the same behaviors in her that I saw in my mom when she left.' When she looked after FIL, she was also being surrogate MIL.

These family dynamics are so complex. I liked this story that you told about the relationship away from them:

We even decided to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas last year together and ditch our families. It was great, and we were seriously talking about her moving back.

I'm not suggesting any of this is right, but like everyone just trying to reflect back some of what I'm hearing (conditioned by my own personhood and experiences of course!)

In peace, River

[jon2911]

EDIT - And another question if I may: Did your W ever get a chance to make amends with her mother before her passing?

Not really. She spent a week with MIL before she went into the hospital, and was there the last week, but seemed to stay detached. Like I said, W didn't want to be there the morning MIL died.

[jon2911]

I like your thoughts River. Those steps i through ix are true, never thought about it that way.

What is she scared of? I think she's scared of being abandoned like she feels MIL did to her. She's also very scared of making FIL mad or unhappy. She's really scared of anyone in authority, or inconveniencing anyone. One of the books I read described her as the "good girl", who can intuitively sense tension in a room and move to alleviate it. She'll sacrifice her personal health before inconveniencing anyone else.

[jon2911]

Talked with W briefly Tuesday, she had recommended a new blizzard at Dairy Queen and I was trying it. Redneck, I know, but it was a fun convo. As I was heading out of town yesterday, I stopped to catch "Blind Side" with a friend. Great flick.

As the previews were rolling, W called in tears. I ducked out real quick, and she said her new roommate had messed up both of their computers, and W was worried it was a virus. I told her it didn't sound serious and that I'd call after the movie.

I called from the road and fixed the problem fairly easily. She mentioned her Christmas plans didn't start until the 26th, so I took a chance and called her back to see if I should detour for a couple days. She thought for a second, then said "I can't do that". Not a cold rejection, I stayed upbeat and said that's OK. She said she used some of the bubble bath I got her, and enjoyed it.

GFIL is in the hospital is in the hospital, and she's going to take care of him for a week. It doesn't sound serious, an infection because his skin is so thin at 85. She is a tremendous caretaker like you said River, and I complemented her on that. That sounds like a rough Christmas even if it's not serious.

GFIL is on her mom's side, her other grandparents died just before we got married. GFIL pays for a lot of her medical and owns the gas well she gets royalties from. FIL and GFIL talked and supposedly reconciled after MIL's death, but like good businessmen they still talk badly and compete against each other. I think it's ridiculous that this continues to go on.

W called later to complain about her roommate, supposedly it's a short-term arrangement because W needs help with rent. i listened and validated.