Looking for Advice

[gutwrenching]

Greek/Others
What do you think of me contacting the OM? I have his phone number, when they were playing the game that they were friends, he offered to talk to me.

[Greek]

My opinion is 'no'. He needs to be out of this pic altogether. Why give him any time in your life? You don't associate with men who prey on your W.

Greek

[12bar]

How are you doing tonight GW? I also thought about confronting OM (me, W and him all work at same company), however, I have decided against it....for now. I do pass him in the hall from time to time and glare at him just to make him nervous

Right now, your priority is to regain the respect of your W by showing that you have strength, and most importantly, self-respect. The best way to accomplish this is through establishing boundaries and clearly communicating the consequences of crossing them. When I confronted my W, I did not establish clear consequences. While I gained a little bit on the respectometer, it was not enough for her to break her A and want to work on things. Don't make the same mistake that I did, it leads to the famed Limboland which I now have to break out of somehow.

I have read time and time again on this forum that the WAS have to experience the crisis of potentially losing the LBS to spark them into action. That is the same scenario that launched the LBS into action, right? The WAS need to really feel that they don't have you in their back pocket as a fall back option anymore. This is why boundaries, GAL and loving detachment are the foundation of DBing.

[rob668]

thankyou....i need to here this a lot till it sinks in enough for me to take action. thick head i guess. rob

[rockedworld]

GW,
I was very tempted to contact the OW in my sitch, put that out there on this forum and was told clearly and unanimously... NO! I was reminded that this person was a predator on your family and is likely a dysfunctional person to have made the choices they made. It is not likely to accomplish anything and more like to be upsetting for you. It also tends to push your spouse and OP more together because they feel persecuted.

so... I left it. I have not given the OW in my case the time of day. I act like she does not exist.

I am focused on my, my kids and woring on my M.

You can do this!

[Deep]

Hi GW,

W does not like the changes? Tough. It's pushing her past her comfort zone. You're not as pliant a doormat any more. What? She thinks you like the new improved her too? (Dummy-proof note: This is not a comment you should say to her).

I agree with Greek that chances are that OM will run for the hills. Right now, W and OM are living a fantasy with no consequences. Injecting some reality into that delusion forces a nasty awakening.

And why do you even ask if you should contact OM? I'm seriously just curious about what your goal is. Sure, it's understandable if you feel like depriving him of a limb or 3 at times, but contact? Are you thinking you can talk sense into him, get an apology and remorse, what exactly? He's beneath you, and nothing good can come out of it.

To repeat from my sitch - when OM texted my W during the period of NC, I called his home and left a message for his W. He actually got angry and panicky, not that he had the stomach to call me. No, he called my W and asked her why I did that, that it was breaking the "rules" and jeopardising his family. Oh, the irony. I made it clear that if he had a problem with my actions, he can contact me for an explanation and that his next contact with my W would see me at his W's workplace. His behavior thereafter showed what a gutless scumbag he was.

Also, before discovery, W and OM had talked about being caught, and W told him she was feeling so guilty and that I would break him in 2 if I knew. OM heroically announced he was going to tell me, and "relectantly" let W dissuade him. "Oh, Deep has a right to know, and if he feels better kicking my ass, I'll take it, afterall we're in the wrong". I was copied in all their official emails relating to a European trip that would have sealed the A. He also got my W to call me out and join them when they had drinks, shaking my hand and buying me beers during the A.

Point being - as long as the A is on-going, you're only going to hurt yourself having any contact with OM. Don't give him the satisfaction. Just work on what you have to do.

[gutwrenching]

All - thanks. Update from tonight. Wife is still pissed, practically childish. She is glaring at me all night, one word responses, going out of her way to make sure she isn't near me, etc. After the kids go to bed, she initiates a conversation. W says she talked to OM today and they have ended it. OM wants nothing to do with this and doesn't want in the middle of it. During this I re-iterated that if it didn't end, I would contact W of OM. This pissed her off again.

She did admit tonight that she was the one that crossed the line and she shouldn't have. Of course, I pushed her there in her mind from years of being too distant.

After the talk, things were a little more cordial. Not friendly by any stretch, but the glaring had stopped and she seemed willing to be within 50 ft of me.

She told me this was between us, not him. That we either worked this out or got divorced but it would be about us.

I used DB techniques, confirmed her perspective and said I understand and that I have changed if she's just attempt to see it

[gutwrenching]

I know only to believe half or less of what W says...but she says he ran for the hills. Coupled with the fact he is a very good friend, she claims she is going cold turkey. He wants nothing to do with this situation and she doesn't want to hurt him or his family. We'll see.
Actions: she told me she took the password off the iphone so I could check it whenever I wanted and she admitted to having previously bought a tracphone with the pay as you go minutes. That is one that I suspected her of, but had never accused and had never proved...now I know I was correct.
She is sleeping in the guest bedroom for the 2nd night in a row and this is the only 2 times in our 14.5 yrs of marriage...even after she dropped the bomb that she would be leaving next summer, we slept in the same bed. Whatever. Guess it'll be a positive sign if that arrangement ever changes.

Probably time for me to re-read DB and/or DR...since all my efforts before were not really being noticed since she was so distracted by OM.

Another positive sign, not for me, but for my kids which made me feel real good. I watched her give the D some no kidding focused, one-on-one attention tonight for the first time in a couple of months. Was good to see. W used to me a great mother, not so much here lately.

I am having trouble with a couple of things, would like some advice. First thing I am still struggling a little with is detachment since we live in same house with 2 kids and work together. Second piece is that balance between GAL/giving her space and her being able to see I've changed (which I have...hit rock bottom, had to fix myself) especially after her comment tonight that I had been distant for 14 years and so she finally said screw it, I'm done.

[sandi2]

I was asked to come by your thread and take a look at your stitch. When I saw the great advice being given, then I stayed out, but was asked again.....so here I am FWIW.

Your mind has been in a whirlwind and somehow during all this holiday stuff, you need to find a quite place just for you so you can come to terms about some things.

I may not say all of this in the order it needs to be, but bear with me. When you said you gave her a "boundary" but you don't know what it is or what to do about it, I don't understand that. Do you mean that if she breaks the boundary that you don't know what to do? That reminds me of kids drawing a line in the sand and daring another one to cross it.....the other kids steps over it and dares the first kid to do anything about it. That is the situation you'll have with your WAW if you have not made the consequenses clear.

First of all.....just what were the boundaries that you laid down? Was it just to drop the OM? B/c if that is all, then the M is far from being out of the woods yet. Have you read the information regarding WAW's and the chemicals that they have which causes them to feel that they are "in-love" with the OM? Do you realize that this is addictive? Do you know that your W will probably try to go deeper under cover in her EA with OM b/c of her addicition to this A?

GW, I am not trying to ruin your holidays........your W has pretty much taken care of doing that! I, however, am concerned that you seem to be blindly stepping out into some of this before you know enough about it. I am really surprised that your W did not go to a motel the night you confronted her. She may lay low until after Christmas. I think she will start to make preparations to leave immediately after Christmas, so you need to take action to protect you and your children.

This is not the girl you M....and you've already said that, but keep reminding yourself b/c you may get a little more than shocked if this turns more ugly than it is. Just b/c she says the A is over......doesn't mean a thing. OM may not continue the A, but that won't stop her from finding some other person. Remember......if she is addicted to those chemical that her body is pouring into her brain....she will be like a drug addict trying to find what she needs.

Sadly, you canot rescue her. It may break your heart....but you must allow her to pay the consequenses of her own actions and don't protect her or rescue her or she will learn nothing. If she wants to move out to her own place....don't stand in her way. The worst thing you could do is to beg, plead, cry, apologize, etc. Don't help her with anything if she decides to move. You don't become her plumber, electrician, or erran boy. Know what I mean? Separate your checking accounts and secure any of your savings that is not "her" money. Don't let her touch what is suppose to be for the kid's college,etc. I just read another thread where the LBH could not believe his WAW wiped him out.....but it happens all the time. She will be thinking of survival, and that's all. Stop paying for anything that are her personal use....like credit cards, cell phones, etc. You said she has a good job.....so let her take care of herself.

I said all of that just in case it happens sooner than you might expect. You need to be prepared for anyting. Don't get caught off guard. You said you had the power? Expect her to do everything she can to get it back.

Do not look at boundaries as being blackmail. Do you have boundaries in place for your children? Boundaries are set in place to teach respect. An example would be that she not TM OM in your presence or in front of your children. But since she claims that she will be transparent in her emails, etc., she shouldn't have a problem, right? Of course, how will you know if she opens a secret email account? Do you know enough tech stuff to find out? Do you have access to the cell phone bills? Of course there are always pre-paid phones. You see, if she wants to have an A, she'll figure out a way to do it.....but what you want to enforce is that she will not take you for some dope who will let her be so carefree and open that she doesn't even bother to cover it up. You may not be able to control what she does when she is away from you, but while in your home and in your presence.....she needs to show you respect. That is the number one issue. Do I need to repeat that? B/c I see a lot of what seems to be a lack of self-respect from you and you won't be getting it from her until you have it for yourself. You said you had read some of my posts, so you probably have seen some of what I say about the importance of women respecting their H in order to love him.

So what do I do. If I tell her that I won't ruin his career or hers or tell his wife, she probably bolts and files for divorce. If I don't say that, maybe she stays but she is PISSED...thats no way to build a relationship.

It is not the conditions you prefer, but if you draw that as a line in the sand.......you'll have to stick to it. She is the one who will make the decision and suffer the consequenses.

So she hadn't really thought about trying to get to a place to work on our relationship. Right now, she is not willing. It is all because of the stereotype WAW syndrome.

So then you should not be surprised that she's not at the place she wants to work on the M. My gosh, things just blew up in her face. Being in a M with you is the very last things she wants to think about. She wants to get far away from you........so stop acting like a pitiful LBH who is looking at his W and wondering why she hasn't come around already, b/c it will be a long time. (If that is what you're doing.)

She doesn't care that I have changed.

No she doesn't care.....not right now. Her mind is on getting out and being single. Besides, it took a long time for you to become the way you are, so why should she expect you to have made changes that are going to stick? These changes need to be for yourself......not her.

She claims they had no plans to run off together, in fact, he's pretty happy with his marriage and family, it was supposedly one of those real good friends that grew into more because my W was needy at the time because she was so pissed at me (and now even more pissed than then) and she reached out to him and he reciprocated

.

This is her version, of course. Listen, she is afraid that you are going to OM's W and tell. She is afraid you'll tell at OM's job. She'll say or do anything to keep you from doing that. Don't listen to what she says, watch what she does.

She claims some of the time the talk and text is I love you stuff, but often just mundane.

Listen, people in EA do not talk mundane stuff to their lovers. They save that for their S's.

Question: I didn't threaten to ruin his/her career. I said I didn't know what I would do if she didn't stop and divorced me. Should be a woos and say ok, I won't hurt anyone, I won't contact OM's Wife, I won't ruin any careers, just come back?!?! I don't think that would work.

Whatever you do....don't be a wuss! Don't tell her that you'll not tell OM if only she comes back. You just tell her what you'll do if she doesn't stop including other men in her life while she is still M to you.

My main worry/concern is saving the marriage. That's what I'm looking for help on.

I understand that, but first the A has to be busted. Then the D has to be busted and after that the M has to be worked on....and hard. This is not the time to be reading the "How to make your M Wonderful" books b/c you have to take first things first. Stay focused, okay?

As she is stomping around the house as furious as I've ever seen her in our 14.5 yrs of marriage, I finally ask her what did she expect.

Were you saying that as in form of an apology? I hope not. It would lose everything you've do. Let her stomp and pout and act hurt or whatever......she is the one who has sinned here....not you. Don't react or respond to any of these actions.

Oh yeah, my W and OM are always on the FB with each other and my W won't even allow me access to her stuff.

That is another boundary that needs to be put in place. If she stays, then she needs to have everything transparent for you to look at anytime you wish.

So firm boundary needs to be stop all contact or I contact OM's wife. Right?
Does this really work?

Didn't you say that was your W's worst fear? Also, exposing him to his boss. Since everyone works for the same company....it won't be an easy time for you, but she doesn't want that to happen for OM and it is her fear. That is what you have to hit a WAW with...who is in an A.

Draw up your toes b/c this will hurt to hear what I'm saying. Stop expecting her to want to put forth effort in this M she wants to leave. I mean, stop expecting it right now b/c she has to get over OM. My H did the same thing and kept saying how he wanted me to say the words that I would put put everything into working on our R. Well, I felt that I was the one who had always done that and was burned out. It was all I could do just to be willing to "stay". It took me a long time.....and it will take your W a long time before she feels the desire to work at a R with you. However, that is not to say she cannot put for the decision to stay in the house and to show you respect as her H. I did do that, and she can too.

One more thing. I have noticed a couple of places you refer to a comment she made about your changes. In the last post, it sounded like she was using the old switcheroo and putting the blame on you and making you feel guilty. She doesn't like some of your new changes, huh? Bet you don't like hers either. Do no allow her to shine the light on what you've done bad when it is about her. Yes, it took both of you to get to this place, but she had the EA and she needs to be remorseful about it. Not about getting caught......sorry about having an EA. That will take her some time to get there, also. You will discover that she will have several baby-steps that she has to make b/c it doesn't all happen in a few weeks or even months. Can you hang in there for the long haul?

[gutwrenching]

Sandi
Thank you for the blunt words. I need that, I know I need that. For some reason, I haven't yet allowed it to sink in that it might be all over, I'm not sure why. Please allow me to fill in the blanks and answer your questions.

you need to find a quite place just for you so you can come to terms about some things.

This is tough. We live an extremely busy life, people we work with don't know how we pull it off, I wonder at times myself, plus Christmas...

Boudary: I told her she had to stop all contact with OM otherwise she would have to move out. I told her I didn't have the affair, I'm not going anywhere, you will move out. I re-itereated last night when she told that she had talked to OM and was stopping all contact all together. I told her again that if she didn't stop everything that I would contact the OM's W. This pissed her off again. When you ask "was it just to drop the OM"...not sure what else you are saying I need to do. yes I've read a lot about the WAW and I even showed it to my wife at some point in the past, possibly a mistake, don't know. She agreed that is what happened.

I do understand and fear they will just go deeper undercover. I've been trying to figure out what will be the warning signs and how I can keep tabs on that. She won't use her iphone again, she wouldn't be that dumb. She could always buy a tracphone again, she has admitted to doing that once already. There is work e-mail that is easy to delete before I could possibly see it. Setting up another e-mail account is just too easy these days. I am computer savvy, more than she is. I know there is software I can get that will track every key stroke if it comes to me feeling I need to do that, provided I can get to the computer in order to do that. She claims I can look at her computer anytime I want.

I think she will start to make preparations to leave immediately after Christmas, so you need to take action to protect you and your children

This one would shock me, but I wouldn't stop her. It would hurt, but I would let it go. If she leaves, then her career reputation is essentially trashed. I think the only reason we are still in the same house is to keep up the front of a happy couple. She knows that if she leaves, I start telling people why she is out. Lets just say she is in a position where that kind of infidelity and that lack of integrity would be a career killer. In the past I would say she would never leave our children, but the woman in my house right now, she just might. Do you think she might try to take the kids too? Uproot them from the school, nanny, routines, they have right now? She can forget me letting her do that.
What other actions should I take to prepare for her leaving right after Christmas?

if she is addicted to those chemical that her body is pouring into her brain....she will be like a drug addict trying to find what she needs

How does one ever get past those chemicals? OBTW, I would say she has an addictive personality, so that just re-emphasizes what you are saying. I don' t think it would be finding someone else, she doesn't have time in the day for that, I would think it would be going deeper undercover and continuing the EA she has now.

Sadly, you canot rescue her. It may break your heart

I does break my heart. I won't lie about that.

She will be thinking of survival, and that's all

I'll have to see what I can do. I handle all of the finances. She is deathly afraid of the financial side. She even told me early on in this saga that the one bit of power I had over her was money, because she is so afraid of that (this of course before i gained power exposing the EA). There is little to nothing either of us have that is personal. Everythign is joint, including the cell phone account (which is how I have access...it is in her name, so she can always cut me out, I'm waiting for that and that will be a sign that the EA continues). most of our savings are tied up in things that she could simply not cash out. I can protect the rest, will take care of that today or tonight.

Of course, how will you know if she opens a secret email account?

I told her the same thing last night. In fact, I know she has one, and I can't get into it, and she looked down when I mentioned something about setting up e-mails. I didn't tell her I knew about her secret account, because then she would just open another one. You can't stop that these days. Prepaid phones...she already knows that trick. She accused me of snooping thru her car and finding the book to it that was in her purse. That is BS and I told her so. That book ended up on a kitchen counter probably because of the kids. She admitted last night she had bought that phone to talk to OM.

but what you want to enforce is that she will not take you for some dope who will let her be so carefree and open that she doesn't even bother to cover it up. You may not be able to control what she does when she is away from you, but while in your home and in your presence.....she needs to show you respect

I think she gets that. That is what I told her when I confronted, that I couldn't take her being so secretive and almost flaunting it in-front of me. That's the whole reason I didn't wait till after Xmas, cause I couldn't take her flaunting the texting that was happening between them on Sunday, mundane or not. I really wish I could have waited till after Xmas, but it is what it is now.

B/c I see a lot of what seems to be a lack of self-respect from you and you won't be getting it from her until you have it for yourself.

Yes you are probably right. I need to work on this. I was doing better for a while and then fell backwards again.

so stop acting like a pitiful LBH who is looking at his W and wondering why she hasn't come around already, b/c it will be a long time. (If that is what you're doing.)

Yes this is what I have been doing.

That is another boundary that needs to be put in place. If she stays, then she needs to have everything transparent for you to look at anytime you wish.

She claims I have free access to her computer, phone, etc. Question: should I openly let her see that I am checking? I didn't last night, it wouldn't have done any good. She would have covered her tracks last night and she told me she talked to OM for about 45 minutes to end the affair.

Draw up your toes b/c this will hurt to hear what I'm saying. Stop expecting her to want to put forth effort in this M she wants to leave. I mean, stop expecting it right now b/c she has to get over OM. My H did the same thing and kept saying how he wanted me to say the words that I would put put everything into working on our R. Well, I felt that I was the one who had always done that and was burned out. It was all I could do just to be willing to "stay". It took me a long time.....and it will take your W a long time before she feels the desire to work at a R with you. However, that is not to say she cannot put for the decision to stay in the house and to show you respect as her H. I did do that, and she can too.

You described me perfectly here. I need to read this over and over.

have noticed a couple of places you refer to a comment she made about your changes. In the last post, it sounded like she was using the old switcheroo and putting the blame on you and making you feel guilty. She doesn't like some of your new changes, huh? Bet you don't like hers either. Do no allow her to shine the light on what you've done bad when it is about her. Yes, it took both of you to get to this place, but she had the EA and she needs to be remorseful about it. Not about getting caught......sorry about having an EA. That will take her some time to get there, also. You will discover that she will have several baby-steps that she has to make b/c it doesn't all happen in a few weeks or even months. Can you hang in there for the long haul?

She has tried the switcheroo a couple of times. Sometimes I handled it better than others. She tried it last night and I was prepared and told her I understand that my actions in the past helped her get to this place, but that I didn't cross the line and have an affair, she did. She should have told me she was ready to walk, not go have an affair. She then actually admitted that yes she screwed up, she went to far, she crossed the line. Other times in the past, the switcheroo worked a little on me and made me feel guilty for getting her to this point. She pushed a little more last night and said that I was so disntant for so long that she reached out to someone and doesn't know if she can reach out to me again. I basically said I understand, and I have changed, I have changed for me and hopefully for her in the future but that was up to her. i told her I can't change the past and I can't dwell on the past, I've only got today and the future that I can affect.

You will discover that she will have several baby-steps that she has to make b/c it doesn't all happen in a few weeks or even months. Can you hang in there for the long haul?

Baby steps keep me going. If I can see baby steps, I can hang in for the long haul. Just last night hearing her finally admit she had an affair and that she had crossed the line was enough to motivate me for a couple of more days. The night prior was all rationalization and projection onto me.

Other than all that, not much has changed since my last post. We had a cordial but cold evening together doing Christmas cards. She invited me...she was doing them and said who else would you like to send a card too. I sure as hell wasn't going to have her write the cards to people I wanted, so I sat down and took care of them and then she brought up a couple of more mutual people and we took care of that. This morning, same ole, same ole, bitter/nasty/pissy. Whatever. It is so childish. I said good morning, she grunted at me. When I left I nicely said goodbye and got a cold bye in return.
Thank you, thank you so much for your time and straight forward approach with me