K4D It's a Wonderful Life

[K4D]

There is no such thing as perfection. I hope you know that.

You haven't seen someone as anal as my W who will work through the night and the morning before going to sleep to make sure perfection is met.

Make YOUR place how YOU want it. Get a haircut/new clothes to WOW yourself. And while your W is in YOUR home let her know by your ACTIONS you are the man of the house and you take the lead as far as your children are concerned. IMO if she is nothing more than a visitor in your home attending for a holiday celebration. I feel that would make a bigger impact on her than anything.

So often (in most cases I think and certainly in my own experience) the WAS wants the perks of marriage and family when it is obligatory (holiday, b-day or they need help/support) but when they don't want it, they just blow you off. It is of my opinion (and yes, we all have opinions) that so many LBS's block their own healing and forward movement when they allow the WAS to have the perks of marriage and family when they choose. Your W has opted out of the perks of a marriage and in tact family on a full time basis so when she is included she should be treated with the same courtesy you would treat any other random guests but not doted on or coddled as a spouse.

Shower yourself and girls with happiness and attention and let her see that she is now an outsider (who is still treated with kindness as you would any guest) but certainly not part of an in tact nuclear family simply because it is a holiday.

That is the exact reason I no longer answer my H's "happy holiday" texts or any other text/message unless it is about further execution of our Agreement. He opted out and no longer gets the perks of having a loyal and fantastic friend and wife. Its not about being rude or unkind. To me it's about actions and I choose to not have a part time friend/husband when he has a few spare and private moments away from his long term affair.

On the rare occasion I do have to see my H I am smiley, pleasant and polite as I would be to any random person I don't have a relationship of any sort with. I simply view him as an outsider and while I know that hurts him it's a very direct consequence of his actions over the past 21 months.

It certainly will take some powerful restraint on your part but make the holiday all about you and your girls and view your W as a guest who was fortunate enough to be included. Be kind but shower yourself and your girls with attention and love. She chose to dismantle the family. Show her you have created a new one. Let her be the one to engage conversation. As I said, be happy, polite, civil and welcoming to her as you would to any other guest you would have in your home for a holiday celebration. That is how I would handle it.

I appreciate that CG. And I totally get what you are saying. Only one thing I would say is my W is not looking for family perks. She feels obligated to do the birthdays with me for the kids sake. I had to extend the invitation for Christmas morning together. That was not part of her plans. She is trying to keep Christmas as separate as possible with our girls from me except for Christmas day in which her mom extended an invitation to me. I wasn't invited to go to the movies with her and my girls Friday night. She has made no mention of doing Christmas eve together. She and the girls went and had Christmas pictures made together without me. She is talking about taking the girls to see Santa on Tuesday night which is her night with them. She hasn't sought any perks at all.

Just a few notes to input here. I did see W last night. I had to stop by because D12 left her phone charger there at the house. So W asked that I come in and leave the girls in the car since she had their presents in the living room unwrapped. Fortunately I had gotten my hair cut and styled and was wearing all new stylish clothes looking pretty dang good as this was unexpected. Anyways, I go inside and she goes through everything that she got the girls. We had both agreed on how much we would spend on the girls and while I haven't quite met that amount yet, but still need to get a few things tomorrow night, W definitely passed that and is planning much more. I am not going to try and compete with her. W did get me a gift that she knew I would just love and gave it to me last night because it was a Christmas decorative peice that she wanted me to be able to display and said it couldn't wait until Christmas. So I guess that answers the question of are we getting each other something for Christmas. And of course, I have no idea what to get her in return. Then she offered me one of the pictures she had done with the girls for Christmas. I accepted although looking at it without me in it hurt some. But I was smiley and accepted as well as my gift. She was very nice last night. She even started purchasing stocking stuffers and showed those to me as well.

I will of course be civil come Friday morning and not over engage in conversation. D12 brought up Christmas day at MIL's house with me last night and said that she was talking to MIL and MIL I guess told her if there is anyone fighting then someone will have to leave. So D12 tells me that she asked MIL what if W is the one that starts it. So MIL told her that W will have to leave then if she is the one that starts it. I'm not sure why D12 brought this up to me as I didn't inquire about it. But I have no plans of fighting with W now or in the future. I'm sure not going to do it on Christmas day. To much at stake that day for everyone including myself. This is a big moment coming up that I have to be my absolute best, no questions asked. My main goal is to be friendly with everyone and simply focus on the girls and their Christmas as much as possible that day until W and the girls leave for their movie.

Kevin

[Startingover2]

Kevin pretend like this is the first NEW Christmas of many. This is how the future will be unless your W will have some big change which at the moment doesn't seem likely. Alot of D people do the holidays together for the first few years at least. My first exh and I did until I got remarried and our kids got older. You are not on display at Xmas..you are participating for your girls.

You can do this!

[CityGirl]

To me, perfection is obtained when you put all your effort in to whatever it is you are doing and you are pleased with the outcome. That is personal perfection (IMO) and if somebody else doesn't see it that way then so what?

If you are happy the way YOUR house looks and the events you planned for Christmas Eve and you put in all the effort you can then it's YOUR perfection. It may not be your W's perfection but the goal here is to create YOUR version of perfection that pleases you.

I used to be the most anal person on the planet and would spend hours making things "perfect" and get very bent if one little thing went wrong. I imagine it was terribly annoying to those around me. I was missing out on precious moments that everybody else was experiencing in order to obtain perfection. When in fact perfection really is more about the experience and not how perfect a bow is or how grand a table setting is.

It was thoughtful for your W to get you a gift that she thought you would enjoy. I think you handled that well. Do you feel obligated to get her a gift because she purchased you one? IMO that is the wrong reason to give a gift. I don't feel you have to give her a gift simply because she got you one. And you did say in your post "now I don't know what to get her in return". You don't have to get her anything "in return". Simply drop her a note in the mail thanking her for the gift as you would to anybody else that purchased you a gift.

[K4D]

Two things:
no, 3 things...I'm tired...done wrapping though!

My night is coming for wrapping.

Okay First, Your comment about dressing to wow your stbxw is still off the mark even though the result is good. You want to look your best b/c you are ON your best b/c you deserve it, after all, you are meeting interesting people, going to new places and doing fascinating things!! And you're a good looking guy with women who are interested in you if you let them, and you'd be dating if you felt like it and you have stuff going on in your life....but to do it for her...???? Hello???? No. She'd be a blind fool not to notice the new you so if she's a blind fool, that's HER problem not yours....next issue....

I think I am being over complimented here. Let me get my telescope and see where the line of women starts. lol.

You are unbelievably missing all of our points about being your own man and not needing her approval. I know, you can't/won't be strong enough to do that and yet the weakness is what repels her but you can't/won't change that and so blah blah blah you are stuck... you are one thick headed dude.

Being upbeat and taking care of yourself is b/c you ARE Doing that for your life to improve for you to be happier...anyhow...not FOR her... anyway........moving....on....

I may be weak inside, but I don't show weakness to my W anymore. I haven't done that in some time. I am not depressed, negative, pessimistic, angry, or anything in front of her. I keep those feelings to myself and basically wear a mask in front of her. I'd be surprised if she could still read it as I have worked hard to not reflect any of that in front of her.

2)
A slight issue with the cake eating thing. I get it. But I wonder... if it were me, (and once upon a time it was)... I'd make sure you project what COULD be your wife's life, if she were to choose it, and so you want to contrast the warmth and joy and family life you all will have temporarily, with the life your wife is choosing to have instead. So while I agree with CG and others about not letting your wife cake eat, I say that goes more to the bills STILL now worked out, and changing child care plans at the last minute, often, and verbally abusing you, in front of the girls, her not having any problems crossing your boundaries-- and her yet enforcing her own on you.

I don't think she verbally abuses me in front of the girls unless I have forgotten about something. I think the life my W is choosing is being projected into reality for me and my girls. I see your point about projecting it fully into a new life for me and my girls as it seems to be on the forefront. I will admit and I will probably get hammered for this, but I am trying to tell myself that God works when things seem their bleakest and most hopeless. Believe me, I live with the reality thoughts of what life is looking like every day. And I think about the future without her and her whoever the latest sugardaddy is.

But as for the Holy day itself, why not make it fun and happy? Would it really offend you to put "mommy and daddy" on the gifts? Isn't that really you wanting to show your wife some tiny point that will either be a painful reminder for your children that you are divorcing, AND you two cannot get your acts together to unite for gifts on Christmas, and you are also trying to "teach your Xw a lesson"--which we all know is not our jobs to do... and almost always means we're trying in some way to punish? Yeah it's a fine line between being punitive-- and enforcing a healthy boundary, but In your case, it's not as if she bought them nothing- while you spent all your money on gifts is it? Isn't it more likely she paid more? This isn't a boundary to me. It's petty and ironically the boundaries that really count, like the bill paying and the child care are the battles you hide from but on this point, you want to make a stand?

I think you missed what I was saying here. I wanted the gifts to be from both mommy and daddy. I'm not sure if she has the same intentions which somewhat bothered me. I wanted to be united on this and hopefully we will.

Some day your d's will finish high school or college, and then one will marry. If your xw has remarried a wealthy guy which seems to be her plan du jour, and they are paying for 90% of the wedding b/c you didn't save a cent for it, or make enough, etc...and let' say you walk the d down the aisle...imagine that your xw and her h pay most of the wedding BUT say "it's from US" and they include you...they don't apportion it, or say Only a little from dad, or K4 has to buy his own puny gift b/c blah blah blah he makes less money and blah blah blah....ideally if it comes down to divorce ---don't you want to avoid any type of competing with gifts? Thing is, the kids lose the most with that. (And I have a feeling you will lose there too buddy. You harp about money and your lack of it, but you want to be picky and specific on this issue. Even if your gifts this year are greater, what about next year? This is not a good precedent to set. As long as you have Christmases together, I'd say the gifts come from you both (until OM or OW come into the pic. Cross that bridge later...)

Again, you missed what I was saying. I say they come from both of us to. That is what I was trying to say I would prefer and want.

My older brother and his Xwife put both their names for years b/c they did discuss the gift purchases with each other, and though they paid different amounts, each parent wanted their d to feel loved by them both and not that they were in a competition. Just as both parents will be proud the day their d graduates, they won't say "I am proud BUT this comes from ME ONLY, ... I can't speak for your mother..." You can mock it all you want, but I think it's the high road -FOR NOW-and anyhow you keep saying you are still married...and it seems petty to say "from DADDY ONLY" on a card, thereby reminding them of the sep and looming divorce by effectively pointing it out. Plus if our X W spends more than you anyhow, how do you lose? Seems a little odd that she's willing to have your name on the gifts she bought b/c she may have paid more. ANd if not, so what? Isn't her rent/over head a lot higher than yours too? I know SHE wanted the divorce. In her mind it was justified (at the time it was justified in your mind too)... I don't feel super strongly about this, but I think it's worth pointing out.

25, you and me are on the same page here. You just misread what I wrote.

Again, if you want to project "this is what could be" for us, then do it right. Be a strong confident man who doesn't second guess his choices and who does not worry about his wife staring at him or whether he's good enough, BUT does care about his daughters feeling that Santa visited them and they got good gifts from both parents AND that both parents put aside their anger issues & scorecards for them, b/c both parents really love them so much that their anger at each other (or their desire to "teach the spouse a lesson" and "make a point" was not in the Christmas spirit. Leave those lessons for another day perhaps?

There are no lessons being taught here to W. There is nothing I can teach her anyways. I sure wouldn't do it for Christmas.

SO YOU KNOW, I say all this even though it may seem counter intuitive, b/c it's based on DB advice my coach gave me 2-3 Christmases back. I did not want to pretend all was well w/H. I wanted my h to sleep on the couch and be a guest. I wanted him to taste the down side of single life in the sense that he could not get his "family fix" and yet live elsewhere...but my DB coach took another approach...again, our sitch was not identical and h never said "get out, you repel me" or that he wanted a divorce...he had a "mission" that didn't include us and made it clear at the time that the task he wanted outweighed all else in his life.

And everyone of us has to make the ML choices we make based on what we can handle AND what's safe if there's an OP in the picture for example.

But my DB coach told me something I'll never forget, --"Contrast the negative images he's created to justify his choice, with positive images that undermine the negative. Contrast the warmth and love he can find at home, with whatever he's finding out there in the cold tundra..." and see what happens" and since it was only a few days, I was able to pull it off. We had a great Christmas...and another turning point I think. And more positive memories for the kids.

It was a gamble no matter what I did. But as I said, it wasn't a long period of time and it was for the children to remember playing happily and if that meant a few days more of happy family memories, then so be it. That much more for a WAS to miss...Later h would say how much he missed them and us...i was NOT needy, I was upbeat, attractive, happy with the kids and NOT showing awareness of h except when he spoke and then I was interested in him (like CG says) but I was also warm and complimentary ...it was only a few days. You only have to be strong and happy (WITHOUT LOOKING EXCITED OR EAGER) one day.

That's my take. CG, we may agree to disagree and you could be totally right, But consider this too...do you think K4 can pull off any type of detachment without anger if he's trying to show her how good he looks and being upbeat AND yet makes sure she "knows her place" and all is NOT well? IS this the time to make that clear? Seems to me you don't want your w to enjoy herself and that's kind of counter intuitive b/c again, she's supposed to associate you with warmth/love/leadership/partnership but all I hear is guilt arrows you're shooting at her, and some begging. I hear a lot of increasing resentment in his posts for this time of year and if K4, if you drink, I foresee a fight. In fact , I envision a bad bitter scene/major backslide about to take place if you won't play nice for the day...just my two cents...

This is my big test. I have been waiting for a moment like this for a long time. I will not be drinking. Believe me, I already had to think about that as the liquor will be out and abundant and the rest of them will be. I already decided and will stick with it that not a drop of alcohol will touch my lips. 25, I am putting everything I have into making Christmas day the best possible for everyone including myself I can. I would love for this to be a turning point and I will in no way screw this opportunity up regardless of what is said on this board. I have a mission and I will execute it regardless of opinions on here. I am taking my shot at this like I said. Infact, I intend to reread this Christmas eve and morning to make sure I have everything dotted and crossed.

One thing I'm SURE of is DO NOT overthink this. Take an approach and stick to it, and be there fully present for your daughters. In fact, once the gifts are wrapped, and everyone's there, why even ponder your w? This day is for lovers and children...not estranged spouses suspecting and maneuvering...stop that b/c it's not going to work anyhow, and it's SO not the right focus. CHRISTmas...make it about the kids and not the scorecard.

There is no scorecard here. And I intend to fully focus on the kids and make it a great day. I will not let anything

Be a man who is happy on his own (fake it til you make it on that score) and brings something to the table that is NOT a need from his estranged wife. Someone with interests and compassion and lots of vibrant love and joy in his heart. And AT the end of the day when w is leaving--all that ENDS and she's not in the warm fun loving home of laughter and hugs and joy....let her figure that out. Back off and she just might...

the harder you hold onto her, the more she'll pull away. (rabbits and foxes...)

I fully understand this and it is my game plan to execute.

Oh, k4, may seem like a chick flick/date movie, but RENT the movie "the holiday" (not Queen Latifahs' but the one with Cameron Diaz/ Kate Winslet/jack Black and Jude Law) and make sure you listen to the speech Kate makes to the man who broke her heart but then wants to win her back...listen carefully and see how good you'll feel.

I will rent this tomorrow night and watch it. Thanks for the help.

Merry Christmas
j-

PS hope this makes sense as I'm falling asleep now...

Merry Christmas to you to 25. It makes sense. Thanks for staying up and helping me execute Christmas the best possible way I can to give everything the best shot possible.

Kevin

[K4D]

ah, scratch "the secret agent" as a southern boy you should read "the sound and the fury."

btw, for month and months and months, 25yearsmlc been ripping you a new one. when you gonna stand up to her?

Stand up to her for what? For spending countless hours and time trying to help me turn things around especially with the biggest chance I have coming in a few days that I have not had in over a year to make the best impression possible for me and my family and hopefully hit a turning point in all of this?

Kevin

[K4D]

I agree with the Xmas gifts and day. Put Mommy and Daddy on the tag and be cheerful and nice. It will only hurt your girls if your not. Not saying to sit next to her and hold her hand, but be friendly and nice as you would treat a houseguest. Remember your girls are watching.

I am putting from mommy and daddy on mine. Infact I think I will let her know I am and then the choice is hers if she wants to or not. Yes the girls are watching and I will not screw this up. Like I said, I am taking my shot here. This is my one opportunity to hit a turning point. I intend to take it. As 25 says, it is a gamble, but one I am prepared to make. I may not get another opportunity for a long time. This could determine a lot about how things go in the future.

Kevin

[K4D]

To me, perfection is obtained when you put all your effort in to whatever it is you are doing and you are pleased with the outcome. That is personal perfection (IMO) and if somebody else doesn't see it that way then so what?

If you are happy the way YOUR house looks and the events you planned for Christmas Eve and you put in all the effort you can then it's YOUR perfection. It may not be your W's perfection but the goal here is to create YOUR version of perfection that pleases you.

I used to be the most anal person on the planet and would spend hours making things "perfect" and get very bent if one little thing went wrong. I imagine it was terribly annoying to those around me. I was missing out on precious moments that everybody else was experiencing in order to obtain perfection. When in fact perfection really is more about the experience and not how perfect a bow is or how grand a table setting is.

I am fairly happy, well, will be once I finish getting my place just a little better done up. I understand about being happy with it for myself. But knowing that a lot might be riding on how Christmas day goes, I just want to make the best impression possible in every way I can.

It was thoughtful for your W to get you a gift that she thought you would enjoy. I think you handled that well. Do you feel obligated to get her a gift because she purchased you one? IMO that is the wrong reason to give a gift. I don't feel you have to give her a gift simply because she got you one. And you did say in your post "now I don't know what to get her in return". You don't have to get her anything "in return". Simply drop her a note in the mail thanking her for the gift as you would to anybody else that purchased you a gift.

Thanks CG. I will think it over on the gift.

Kevin

[Drew]

Just be careful of expectations ...........

[K4D]

Just be careful of expectations ...........

Drew, I think that might be where people are confused here. This is a gamble I am taking. You don't have expectations when you gamble. This could go either way. Its like the roulette table. Once that ball drops, you have done everything you can to make the best possible choice based off past streaks and what you know and where it lands, it lands. You live with the results.

That is what I am prepared to do.

Kevin

[K4D]

I sent W a text saying... "What you decide is up to you, but I am putting from mommy and daddy on the gifts I got for the kids. Let me know if you want me to go in half and half with you on the video camera for D7. Also, thanks again for the gift last night. D7 also loved it."

Kevin