Positive developments? #2

[dday101798]

Ok, so what I'm getting here is both W and her sister in their own way rebel against the F by chosing those completely different from him.

That said, curious, why does your W oppose you standing up to him?

And I'd be ramming that three-peat failure down his throat as obviously at that piont in his life, his bearing were'nt so straight either until he found his nitch.

So, why did your W leave the second time around? As I said, that may be key.

Deal with CEOs? Uggh, I deal with MDs, PhD, MBA, CEO, CFO AVP, VP, Chairman, you name it. So, yes, they can be hoot at times.

[JCJ]

Hi Jon

I read your recap and just wanted to say hello. I am 28 and my h is 27 and my h had severe health difficulties in our first year of marriage after which he left. I don't have any advice but I will be reading along. I don't think you (one) can underestimate the impact health and trauma can have on a marriage, especially in the early years.

[jon2911]

Thanks for the insight JCJ! I've been following you for a while as well. Looks like we got here about the same time.

dday, I agree that the 2nd time she left was important. I'll write about it later tonight or tomorrow. It was an interesting time.

[jon2911]

Interesting interaction last night.

After reading Lola and Michelle's thoughts and talking to my recovery sponsor, I decided to call W and make it clear this is not what I want. I called at 10:15, and she sounded tired and headache-y. That is usually a good time to call, had worked a couple times this week, and it's much better than in the morning.

I asked if I'd woken her up, or if she had time to talk, and she said she'd had a bad day and mumbled something about 5 minutes. She's hard to understand when she has a migraine. I softened my voice and said I'd like to talk to her, and she said sharply "I've only got 5 minutes, what do you want?". I told her quickly, she said "I hear you". Then she asked about the taxes in a cold way, and I told her I'll have some answers today.

Afterwards I felt like I was walking on eggshells all over again. I go into that mode too quickly, especially when she isn't feeling well.

W then called at midnight and said "I'm sorry I was short with you. I wasn't feeling well." She was much nicer and I could tell she felt bad. I thanked her for the apology, said I'd had trouble understanding her and should have gotten to the point quicker.

She said "I was asking if it was important, and that was important, but I already know where you stand. E-mail is better for things like that."

So, my sponsor thought phone was definitely better for something like that, but I'll listen to my girls here next time

Working hard on the taxes today, comparing the difference between filing married joint and separate, and finishing her Louisiana taxes for '07 and '08. She hasn't paid the last two years on a gas well there that is her main source of income. It's always made our taxes complicated. I have three different Turbotax years open here!

I'm finding that we'd pay quite a bit more filing Married Separate because none of my education expenses or student loan interest is deductible:
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p501/ar02.html#en_US_publink100041771

However, breaking it down she'd pay $3,800 and I'd get a $1,200 return. That's because all the withholding was from my job, there was no withholding on her gas royalties.

This is why taxes have taken so long and been so aggravating for me. I've tried to be nice and not think about how much more I've paid, but I'm done with that. If we do file Married Joint I'll need her to make up that difference. If not, it might be worth it to me to file Married Separate.

[River]

Hello Jon

Listening to your story, it's hard to imagine that your W's (seemingly untreatable) headaches aren't connected to her emotional life - particularly given that they started around the time of her parents' D, and seem to continue to effect so strongly the contact that she has with you, and her ability to work.

You said FIL wants to blame you for the headaches (due to concussion), and only wants to seek medical solutions to the problem. I guess that suits him in two ways: it takes any possible responsibility for her condition off him, and it prevents the situation being addressed on an emotional level.

It sounds like FIL has powerful needs to cut off emotional scenarios in his own life: for example refusing MIL's wish to see her at the end of her life, refusing to attend SIL's wedding etc. Sounds like that world of emotion is too dangerous for him and he has massive defences up against it - presumably developed as a kid in response to his own alcoholic tyrant father. His immediate remarriage after the D also sounds like it might have been blocking out emotions - not taking responsibility for his part in the failed M, but instead (I speculate) blaming MIL. I wonder if he got the kids to buy that line - i.e. bringing about your W's belief that MIL was 'the crazy mom who had abandoned her kids'.

My guess is that your W must have deeply divided feelings about FIL, not least because after the kids sided with him (after the D), he then betrayed your W's trust by remarrying quickly and breaking his promise to her. No wonder that's a sore spot for her. It shows FIL getting it wrong, and she may need to believe that he has got things right.

The reason I mention all this is because my sense (and this may be completely wrong) is that it might be worth thinking carefully about what you confronting FIL might mean to your W.

Here I respectfully disagree with Dday Of course, Dday may be right, but it's possible, I think, that a big part of your W's identity (her big 'mistakes' in life) are tied up with FIL: in particular, following his take on his own marriage and the 'crazy mom' thesis, and also - like FIL - following his example of failing (or refusing to) grieve your MIL's death.
This is why I say she may need to believe that FIL has got things right: imagine what it would take to believe that FIL's take on the world is wrong. It might mean admitting that he was wrong about MIL, but she has passed away, so that damage can never be repaired. In other words, if FIL is 'wrong', then both of those matters (crazy mom/not grieving) become a kind of a betrayal of your W's mother, so they are likely to be extremely sensitive.

For these reasons, I wouldn't underestimate the power of those points of connection between W and FIL. I think that power is evident in the way Your W seems to be caught up in his vortex - sometimes breaking free from it, and things being better with you, and then being sucked back in again.

My concern is this: if you dramatically challenge him, it's possible that you'll also be striking at a very confused set of issues within her, and she may react by siding with him more strongly in order to face those issues down.

I think it's significant, and as Dday said, curious, that your W opposes you standing up to FIL.

Let's say for a minute that the idea above is right, and that a 'hard' attack on FIL (by you) would also indirectly be an attack on unresolved issues within your W. Is there an alternative? I think there is, because alongside the unhelpful ways in which your W has followed FIL, she's also rebelled against him too, and she did that through a 'soft' attack, through love, by marrying you.

Isn't it interesting that he really wants a hard-headed businessmen for son-in-laws, but as Dday mentioned earlier, "both W and her sister in their own way rebel against the F by chosing those completely different from him": you with the ministry and music (and your ongoing, loving DBing), BIL with the counselling.

In the light of the sisters choices', I wonder if there's another reason why she doesn't want you to attack FIL - isn't hard attack FIL's own personal way of doing things? And by attacking back in that manner, wouldn't that make you like him?

What's your feeling about this? Is it possible that she wants you to *not* be like him? After all, it sounds like you weren't like him when you and W were first together. You mentioned that at an early stage, everything in your marriage became about proving FIL wrong, but that sort of sounds like you had to adopt his own work ethic--and to become like him--in order to prove that you weren't like him. Ironic if true.

I suppose my question is, what is your sense of how your W feels about the times when you've acted more like your FIL in the past, and how does she respond when you are (in attitude) more like you were when you first met (i.e. big contrast to FIL)?

I thought it was encouraging to hear that BIL had asked your W about how she has dealt with the grief over your MIL's death, and particularly that she repeated this coversation back to you. It's a kind of acknowledgment on her part, even if the subject is still unaddressed. It also sounds like BIL has clear insight into the dynamic. It's a happy coincidence that your MIL described your FIL as a dry alcoholic, and that your BIL is an addiction recovery counsellor. It's also good to hear about how well SIL dealt with MIL's final illness. Are you in contact with them? They sound like a real positive in this situation, and may have much insight to offer, and, a relationship with your W through which that may bear fruit.

God bless you Jon, River

[jon2911]

Played some phone tag with W last night, left her a voice mail, then went to a party with some friends. Had a great time.

I need to e-mail W with the results of my tax work. If she's still going through with the divorce, I'll give her a choice of 1. Filing Married Separate 2. Making up the difference to me if we file Joint. This would save us money overall, but would still cost her $1900.

How do I put this without sounding vindictive? I'll work on an e-mail and post it here.

[jon2911]

River, those are some great questions and insight. I'll work on some answers tomorrow. Got the Louisiana tax stuff e-mailed to W, that should be good for now. No idea if she filed this week.

For now, how about them Cowboys?

[jon2911]

Got a text during practice this morning "Call me when you can. Its nothing that you need to get away from people to talk"

I texted back that I would call soon. Called her during a break, and she said she was wondering if the flowers were from me, or from her sister. I told her they were from me. The message said "Hope these brighten your day", but I hadn't put my name on it to be mysterious. She said she'd had a bad week, and that they were really nice. She'll send me a picture later. So, took a risk and it worked.

Methinks this is interesting behavior from a wife who supposedly filed for divorce last week.

[MichelleLT]

It is interesting behavior regardless of whether she filed or not.

You have been asked some interesting questions. Can't wait to hear your thoughts.

Seems like these 180s are mostly working in your favor!

[jon2911]

That said, curious, why does your W oppose you standing up to him?

After her parents D, W watched FIL go through a year of hell. He never slept, lost 50 pounds, wrecked a company car by falling asleep. She assumed the role of mom, taking care of everything around the house. I've always admired her for that, but never understood how damaging it was. In fact, my C showed me a book called "Emotional Incest" describing exactly what W went through, being forced to fill a role of a parent or spouse. She fiercely defends FIL's every move, even when she hates most of them.

And I'd be ramming that three-peat failure down his throat as obviously at that point in his life, his bearing were'nt so straight either until he found his nich.

Right, but he figured it out in college. In his opinion, career and salary need to be ramping throughout your 20's, because it never will after that. A Master's is never worth it because of that. I mean, he doesn't have one, so why should anyone else?

So, why did your W leave the second time around? As I said, that may be key.

When I left the startup in November 2007 and got a "real" job, W noticed the change. She thought I was finally growing up. We started spending a lot more time together, until I was staying over most nights. Her headaches caused her to lose her job, and I put her on my benefits and tried to get her Ebay business going again.

End of January, she told SIL on the phone, in my presence, "Jon and I are in the early stages of working things out, but I'm still moving back to Houston". I couldn't believe it and couldn't convince her otherwise. I found an e-mail from step-MIL. Her exH was a graduate of my Seminary and pastor of a large church, but a secret alcoholic who eventually abandoned his family. SMIL said "you need to leave him, come back here, let us take care of you. Look how happy we are in our 2nd marriage".

They convinced her to come back. They convinced her that the headaches were my fault, and they could fix them. They were wrong.W has a love/hate relationship with FIL, and also desperately wants to please him. I understand a lot of this through Adult Child of Alcoholic book. At first it shocked me how well it described W, because I didn't buy it. The ACOA book also explains why FIL is so black and white about everything, like the career stuff above.

It was only after she moved back that I got serious about the 12 steps, before I was just making changes for her, not me. Even that job and the one after it were the same thing. A W's health problems will definitely affect the type of job a H works. Where's the line between co-dependency and providing?