how to 180 when you've been too independent?

[newmama]

Avermont, I just wanted to say hello! I am going to read your thread from beginning to end before piping in. But I USED to be "Miss Independent" until the last 2-3 years and so I am curious to see if it was similar. I had to learn and force myself to let myself be more dependent on WH. Then he left me, LOL! BUt that was not the reason I don't think! So I look forward to reading up and learning from you as well as offering any insight. :- )

[chatterbug]

Aver says she is Miss Independent. I think you need to remove the 'IN' from it. Make sure you read the 3 threads she has started. I think co dependency issues with commitment issues. I feel this is an issue that Aver has danced around for awhile. I understand that this is a conundrum.

Quote from Jane Austen's Emma
“Why should I understand that, or anything else?” asked the girl. “Don’t bother my head by asking conundrums, I beg of you. Just let me discover myself in my own way.”

[newmama]

Whoa, 3 threads? I have a lot of reading to do during my baby's naps!
Okay, Aver, I have read this thread and must say that you are such a smart and funny woman! Here is what you have done well:
set your goal for what to improve about yourself and what 180s you need to work on:

I want to look like the better option. I want to be the fun, adventurous, willing to do stuff gal I have always been. I also need to develop comfort with intimacy and commitment, . I also DO want to show him that I have needed him--he can be a strong manly man with me and I would welcome that and not brush it off as unnecessary.

Now I need to be honest and tell you that the best option for you for now is to just ignore him except for finances. Forget a letter about establishing NC. You will be more mysterious this way.I think you can just continue "dating" and being fun and adventurous and it will start to show. You will run into the same circles of friends and people, right? IMO You can't really do much to show him that you have developed better intimacy skills right now because he is in an affair and it will look like chasing. There are ways to show him that you could need him if you wanted to need him, though.

Only meet him for bill paying for now. He is with this woman for sex and that isn't enought to sustain a relationship for long. I know it seems like a long time, but, and I mean this in a nice way, he is making up for lost time!

Next: BE CONSISTENT in your approach and behavior, whatever you choose to do. I see that you replied to his emails in the same tone as his. This shows wavering. It also reveals you are playing off of him and not being detached. Be calm, cheerful, collect, cool (Gnosis words I think)

If you will be meeting him once/month for bills, then have much more interesting interaction than last time (sorry but my eyes glazed over as I read your dialogue exchange) and look damn good! Be cheerful and relaxed. (I have anxiety too but I mentaly rehearse and visualize how to act in the event and it works wonders!)You can joke about having to budget in ___ for fun (I don't what new thing you are doing) but "yeah, I need to set aside 300 bucks for my scuba lessons!"

To show you need him, ask his advice, don't give it. I am not saying to act like a helpless airhead, but something like "I need to pick up__for the house, but I don't know if I should get__ or __. What do you recommend?" small things like that. I don't know what his skills are, but you did say he seemed so good at everything (so is my WH) so if you get a chance to ask how to do something, go for it. Now don't overdo it, make it natural and don't expect to see him change right away.


The reason why I am advocating this is because a complete NC means he would never get to see some changes. But seeing him once, maybe twice a month, is enough to keep you on his mind and allow you to detach and date! When we are happy it shows--the WSs also have ESP and they can tell when we're not as interested in a relationship with them. You want him to draw him to you, and I thinkhe stepped out due to needing validation, sex and intimacy issues.I bet she pursued him! Just my quick reaction to reading your initial story.

[newmama]

Yes, you still need to be mysterious. It is the law of human behavior.My friends here on DB forum have gently and persistently talked me into doing it but I have been afraid!

Also, expect to have to wait 2-3 months to see a change on his end. He has been in the A abou 6-7 months now? It is getting closer to ending, I bet!

And I was so intimidated to give you my 2 cents because of all the experienced Vets who are helping you!

[avermont]

Thanks, newmama, for chiming in. I was watching your thread, too, and it seems like a terribly difficult situation.

I would like to refute cutterbug's assertion that I have co-dependency issues. Intimacy and commitment issues? Oh, yeah, I own that 100%! and I'm working on it.

But all thru these 23 years I made it very clear, implicitly and sometimes explicitly (in ways that make me wince, now) that good old Aver was JUST fine on her own, no worries about me, no sir. I could just go off any old moment and not need anyone.

So, do I NEED him? No. But I love him dearly and deeply regret how I buried my true feelings, etc.

Now...as to our interactions...getting so much conflicting advice!

DB coach Laurie: mirror his tone.
Newmama: be consistent in your tone (in emails)

I actually like that better than Laurie's advice. If he's grumpy, I'll be cheerful and casual. If he's cheerful and casual, I'll be cheerful and casual.

Mysterious? Well, he hasn't asked and I haven't told him anything about anything about what I'm doing/going. Our contact is so minimal! Hardly a need for a no-contact letter.

Which is why I am holding on to the finances meeting. It is the one time I have to demo any mysteriousness, or try the flirty route, or any of the other pieces of advice I have been given.

The guy is going to think I'm schizo if I follow all the conflicting advice!

I did try the asking advice route early on, as that is a great way for a guy to feel smart and manly. The trouble is, he is so angry about the fact that I am in the house, that I can't ask advice about house stuff. 'Cause then it's resentment- If I were in the house, I could fix that...

So that's why I said the project I was working on was "scary" (facilities work at the local theatre) so there was an opening for " oh, what's scary? "oh, do you think such and such would work?"

I think asking advice on that sort of thing might work well for me in future conversations.

Yes, the conversation was boring, but I was trying to follow Puppy's advice to treat him and our interactions like the mailman--business like and to the point.

You see the conflicting advice!

And, I will say, HE totally gave the story about the truck and HE at the end of the meeting asked about the grant for the project.

Don't know if that is progress...it just is.

He's been in the A 8 months now. I'm not taking any bets on how much longer it lasts. I do think that his total isolation from our friends and our usual activities must be taking a toll, but again--to practice detachment--that's not my problem.

I am trying very hard to absorb all the advice and wisdom on the list. Sometimes it conflicts, though, so please all, be patient with me if I argue or don't understand or seem stubborn.

Maybe when The Art of Seduction arrives I will suddenly be the new Mata Hari in our little town...

[newmama]

Avermont, I get it! You want to hear that you don't have to do NC! You don't. Whatever you do, be consistent, monitor results, don't chase. Live your life, make self improvements, don't obsess and your WH (bf) will end his affair eventually.

I kind of agree that there isn't much we can do to end it if they leave us for them but we can maybe make a difference in speeding up or sloing down the end. ????

[newmama]

About the advice...you aren't supposed to follow all of it! Personalize it for you. You make good points about keeping the monthly meeting so he can see you. Actually, you have a pretty good set up now that you are really dating.

[avermont]

Thanks, newmama. I was just going back to your first post and my heart was aching for you dealing with all of this with a new baby!

As for NC--it's not really a choice. We just don't communicate unless it is about the house and apartments. He is...gone....poooof...OK-that's not true--he did send ONE email with an article of interest and I sent him TWO--to which I got positive responses and scoldings from cutterbug and puppy.

So, truly now, other than the house, it is radio silence. I am out and about in town, and puppy says to trust that word will get back to him about how fabulous I am. Don't know about that.

I like your advice about being consistent. I overdid the "happy cheerful no worries!" the first time we did bills in October. Perhaps a little too low-key last night. Somewhere in between should be about right.

I will be going out of town from after Xmas until after NYE. I was going to let him know that--just because of the tenants possibly having some emergency--but then I decided that I will give the tenants the usual info with both our contact info, the emergency #'s, etc. If they can't reach me, and have to reach him instead, let him find out that way that I have left town for over a week.

Of course, the mystery there only works if there IS an emergency and he gets contacted.

Sheesh.

[avermont]

And the game is....?

Or am I just being dense?

[newmama]

Avermont, I kind of get the impression that you are holding posters responsible for the advice they volunteer...it's like you are angry with them or something when they don't agree. I could be misreading the intention since it is text only.

he did send ONE email with an article of interest and I sent him TWO-to which I got positive responses [/i][/b]and scoldings from cutterbug and puppy[/b][/i][/u].

(they scolded you probably for coming across as chasing. Is that right?)

I am out and about in town, and puppy says to trust that word will get back to him about how fabulous I am. Don't know about that.

(I read you live in a small town. Puppy is right-
people talk! Eventually your BF will either ask about you or someone who saw you will ask him. Why are you doubting this will happen? Just curious.)

And the previous post where you referenced several posters and the advice they gave...explaining it was conflicting. Why are you naming names?

Okay, now about you going out;

I will be going out of town from after Xmas until after NYE. I was going to let him know that--just because of the tenants possibly having some emergency--but then I decided that I will give the tenants the usual info with both our contact info, the emergency #'s, etc. If they can't reach me, and have to reach him instead, let him find out that way that I have left town for over a week.

I think you should tell him and say "in case the tenants need to know" The reasons why are as follows:
1) you are creating mystery
2) you are showing you "need" his help. You won't be able to take care of the tenants, so could he please help if they need? (I realize it's his job, too, but now he is 'helping' you out, like when your secretary 'helps you out' by rushing that fax. get what I mean????!)

Now as for me, you know my story isn't finished.I am not doing tough love yet but I have obstacles right now that make it tricky. If I didn't have a kid, I would have impulsively filed for D back in March when my WH was jumping for joy at his opportunity to go to OW and I watched as he was filling out paperwork emotionlessly. (We started to complete it in March). SO GLAD I DIDN'T! If I didn't care about WH's involvement w/ our S, I would have gone NC. I did from April-June except for dr. appts and it got easier every day. So now I am trying Bo Peep but my theory is that timing is everything and Bo Peep might work because I'm being consistent, the A is not new, I am GALing and well I can't exactly go NC.