Newbie with almost WAW - Need Advice

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Hi Sandi

W pulled another late nighter after a personal interest course and I again broke DB rules when she got home and asked her what she did after her course. She gave me the standard run around of how it just takes a while to get back from city. I reminded her that she should be aware of my boundary because we had discussed it before and then flat out asked her if she is able to choose between being with her H and being with someone else. She ignored me for a while but then just gave me a very flatly spoken "I'm here". Really don't know what to think of this, it seemed so unemotional and it really shook me up. Had a very rough day today thinking about it. Is it possible that she is trying to break the A and is feeling sad or is she just still heavily emotionally invested in OM. She still doesn't seem to be planning on separating any time soon so I don't know why she would want to stay if she is so checked out.

A few weeks ago, she seemed to be making progress in a good direction. I remember reading in another post somewhere that sometimes, a WAS in an A may be confused as to how to start R and was wondering if she is looking for me to lead us out of this (MC, R discussions, etc.).

I have recently been on an upswing in terms of mood, confidence, etc. but after last night, I feel like I have been beaten back down. When the pain comes back, it sure comes back hard!

[sandi2]

Let me show you your own words a few posts back:

My W is a conflict avoider and has never been one to want to have the tough discussions during our R.

The DR book calls what you're doing as "cheesless tunnels". And/or you can think about it this way, if you continue to do the same thing over & over--yet expect a different outcome, isn't that kind of crazy?

I know how that is b/c I was always one who thought everything had to be solved/settled by means of conversation.....but when it comes to a reconcilliation, a R talk just tears down more than it builds up. Until you can learn to control "your" actions, then she is not going to respond like you want her to. Hasn't she proven that already?

I was an almost WAW involved in an EA, so I can tell you that you facing her and trying to force her to tell you what she has been up to.....won't get the job done. She'll lie at best, and she could decide to walk out and move in with OM at worst. So how about changing your tactics?

I get the idea that when you are referring to "reminding her" of what had been discussed regarding the boundary, that you are kind of coming across in a way that isn't getting you anywhere. Maybe she feels that you are acting as if you are her father or maybe you sound "whinny" (IDK), but if you just have to say something it would be better to do like PDT says and make the statement, "I certainly hope you aren't breaking the boundary that was discussed b/c that would be incredible disrespectful to your H".

To me, the best way for you to have dealt with her is whenever she is out past an appropriate time, turn out all the outside & inside lights, lock all the doors and turn on the alarm system. Then you go to bed and act as if you are asleep when she comes in and do not give her the satisfaction of giving her any attention by "waking up" whenever she comes in. Don't ask her questions about where she's been, b/c you aren't suppose to be showing you are concerned about it. Next day.....you never acknowledge that she was out. As long as you are acting all worried, bothered, fretting, etc.....it makes you look weak, needy, & clingly. Is that the image you want to project?

then flat out asked her if she is able to choose between being with her H and being with someone else

Eww, that was a bad one. Know why? Look at how she responded:

She ignored me for a while

That is what you should have been doing to her instead of following her around the house.....or standing there stomping your foot like a little mad girl. (Which is simply a picture of what you were displaying.)

then just gave me a very flatly spoken "I'm here".

Oh man. She is bored with you! She feels like your mother who has given her child a temporary answer to pacify him. Can you see the lack of respect in how she answered, even though she didn't say a ugly word?

Is it possible that she is trying to break the A and is feeling sad or is she just still heavily emotionally invested in OM. She still doesn't seem to be planning on separating any time soon so I don't know why she would want to stay if she is so checked out.

I don't know how you get that from what she said, unless you are hearing what you 'want' to hear. More likely, OM is dragging his feet about their future.

I have recently been on an upswing in terms of mood, confidence, etc.

So, what were you doing that made you feel that way? You need to find the real "man" you are and start protraying that self-confident, respected person again.

[12bar]

Let me show you your own words a few posts back:

My W is a conflict avoider and has never been one to want to have the tough discussions during our R.

The DR book calls what you're doing as "cheesless tunnels". And/or you can think about it this way, if you continue to do the same thing over & over--yet expect a different outcome, isn't that kind of crazy?

You are right, this is a cheeseless tunnel, I guess I just keep thinking that she is going to wake up one of these days and accept responsibility for her part in our M problems and the pain she is causing through her A. She is such an amazingly strong woman which is one of the things that attracted me to her. However, she has always run from her relationship problems and I just need to accept this and move forward. I know that I am preaching to the choir with this one but while I am only 4 months post bomb, I am coming up on 1 year of her meeting OM and immediately starting to detach from me and it is such a long time to go without that emotional bond.

I get the idea that when you are referring to "reminding her" of what had been discussed regarding the boundary, that you are kind of coming across in a way that isn't getting you anywhere. Maybe she feels that you are acting as if you are her father or maybe you sound "whinny" (IDK), but if you just have to say something it would be better to do like PDT says and make the statement, "I certainly hope you aren't breaking the boundary that was discussed b/c that would be incredible disrespectful to your H".

I was definitely not whinny, I stopped whining, crying, begging months ago. I am sure that it would not have received the PDT 4-whistle seal of approval, however, it was a firm reminder that she is crossing my boundaries. Part of my problem in the past was being passive aggressive when something she was doing bothered me. I have also recently diagnosed myself as a Nice Guy (blechhh.. ). I know that my Nice Guy tendencies are one of the things that has pushed her away from me and even though it is not the best DB approach, I was hoping that it would at least come across as a 180 for me to show her that I am willing to stand up for myself. At any rate, it doesn't appear to be working after two tries so maybe there is no cheese in this tunnel either...

To me, the best way for you to have dealt with her is whenever she is out past an appropriate time, turn out all the outside & inside lights, lock all the doors and turn on the alarm system. Then you go to bed and act as if you are asleep when she comes in and do not give her the satisfaction of giving her any attention by "waking up" whenever she comes in. Don't ask her questions about where she's been, b/c you aren't suppose to be showing you are concerned about it. Next day.....you never acknowledge that she was out. As long as you are acting all worried, bothered, fretting, etc.....it makes you look weak, needy, & clingly. Is that the image you want to project?

Definitely not, next time it is back to lights out, I promise

then flat out asked her if she is able to choose between being with her H and being with someone else

Eww, that was a bad one. Know why? Look at how she responded:

She ignored me for a while

I agree, that was a bad one but as to her response, I still think part of it is due to my quote at the top of this post. It has always been her MO in this type of situation.

then just gave me a very flatly spoken "I'm here".

Oh man. She is bored with you! She feels like your mother who has given her child a temporary answer to pacify him. Can you see the lack of respect in how she answered, even though she didn't say a ugly word?

That one really hit me hard and continues to hit hard to this moment. Such a lack of emotion in her delivery. I was kinda thinking that it indicated that she felt resentful to have to be with me. I read one of your posts on another thread the other day where you were telling someone to find the one area of weakness of their spouse and hit that for best effect. My W came from a broken home, bad sitch where one of her parents literally disappeared with a much younger OP and abandoned the family. I started to feel last night that she stayed with me after the A confrontation to avoid her family finding out what she is doing, IDK, but it sure hurts like hell to think that.

I have recently been on an upswing in terms of mood, confidence, etc.

So, what were you doing that made you feel that way? You need to find the real "man" you are and start protraying that self-confident, respected person again.

[/quote]

Still doing therapy and started working my way through the No More Mr. Nice Guy book. I have started approaching each day as an opportunity to display PMA. Working out a lot

[12bar]

BTW, I lost myself and my masculinity in my M which turned my W off (turned me off too ). Over the past month, I have started to relocate myself and my masculinity and this has improved my attitude immensely. The other night really got to me though, maybe just the holidays...

[sandi2]

That one really hit me hard and continues to hit hard to this moment. Such a lack of emotion in her delivery. I was kinda thinking that it indicated that she felt resentful to have to be with me.

And you may be entirely correct. Since you could see her face and hear her voice, you may be able to tell more about it.

A year is a long time. I wonder what the hold up is for them moving on? That is why I wondered if OM had cold feet and why W was acting like she was.

I know that my Nice Guy tendencies are one of the things that has pushed her away from me and even though it is not the best DB approach, I was hoping that it would at least come across as a 180 for me to show her that I am willing to stand up for myself. At any rate, it doesn't appear to be working after two tries so maybe there is no cheese in this tunnel either...

Don't give up yet.....and for sure don't go back to Mr. Nice Guy b/c it just does not work in WAW A's.

My suggestion is to spend more time doing what you enjoy doing and develop a life for yourself-- to the point you can be okay without her in your life. Doing that, will help you turn lose of the rope you have tied to her, and will aide in keeping you from looking in a not-so-attractive light.

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A year is a long time. I wonder what the hold up is for them moving on? That is why I wondered if OM had cold feet and why W was acting like she was.

I am pretty sure he knows that I know about it and we all work at the same company. He may be worried about his job security if this were to be exposed. On the day of her course last week, we crossed paths in the hallway (rarely happens) and he clearly did not want to walk past me. He actually looked like a frightened squirrel in front of a car! He tried to find a door to duck into but there wasn't one.

Maybe it's the fact that I am twice his size! Very highschoolish, I know

My suggestion is to spend more time doing what you enjoy doing and develop a life for yourself-- to the point you can be okay without her in your life. Doing that, will help you turn lose of the rope you have tied to her, and will aide in keeping you from looking in a not-so-attractive light.

That is my goal without a doubt but it is so hard to let go of that rope. I will keep working at it

[12bar]

Don't give up yet.....and for sure don't go back to Mr. Nice Guy b/c it just does not work in WAW A's.

My suggestion is to spend more time doing what you enjoy doing and develop a life for yourself-- to the point you can be okay without her in your life. Doing that, will help you turn lose of the rope you have tied to her, and will aide in keeping you from looking in a not-so-attractive light.[\quote]

Thanks, I need to hear don't give up right now because I sure have felt like it. A month ago, she really seemed to be reaching out to me but has since withdrawn. The more I read the mr. Nice guy book, the more I realize that I have not been as assertive in the intimacy department as I should have. I think that as she has grown, she is wanting someone more assertive and at least at one point wanted that person to be me, who knows, maybe somewhere deep down, she still does. I know it is not DB but she reached out to me and I still sit here waiting for her to continue reaching out to gauge where we are. Is it possible that she needs to see that I am able to " man up" and be the man she is looking for?

I know this is a stretch but the more I realize how my Nice Guyness contributed to this problem the more confused I get as to how I should proceed. Of course, I still need to keep heading to a point of being ok without her in my life.

[sandi2]

I know this is a stretch but the more I realize how my Nice Guyness contributed to this problem the more confused I get as to how I should proceed. Of course, I still need to keep heading to a point of being ok without her in my life

I don't know that this is the best example to use.....but to try to get the picture in your mind.......think of it as if you were her teacher who was older and wiser. You must have her respect, right? So that means that you have to mean what you say.....and say what you mean. You must be firm with her......but you don't have to do it in an ugly way. You show stength and honor in your leadership....and as a man. However, you keep it strickly a teacher & student relationship. Most teenage girls have a least one crush on a male teacher. At least, they think it's a crush but it is really an attraction they feel toward the teacher b/c she like the attributes she sees in him. She's not mature enough to understand what she's feeling, but she is attracted to him. The same can be said about women and their male doctors, pastors, bosses, etc.

So, you don't act cold or mad. You talk sofly, yet firmly. Remember, you are the one in charge of the classroom.....not her. You can show a smile, and a positive attitude when possible.....but not if she's trying to play her female games on you. You are too wise for that! You stay one step ahead of her. You do not allow her to wrap you around her little finger. Even when you know you could melt if she touched you, you do not let her know that. You do not discuss a R between the two of you.

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We live about 10 hours from our families (from the same town) and we have not seen them since last Christmas. She has not mentioned going there this year so I brought it up last weekend and as I expected, she does not want to go. I am sure that she does not really want to be in the car for that long with me....sad but true .

My parents are getting old and I know going there is the right thing to do. Throughout my M, I would submit to what she wanted to do, even if it meant not doing what I wanted to do or thought was the right thing to do. However, this weekend, I am planning on telling her that "I have decided that I am going and I would love it if you would come with me but I will be OK to go alone if you don't". Unfortunately, this will put pressure on her to go b/c our families have no idea of our problems and if I go alone, it will be pretty clear something is up. At any rate, I am looking forward to seeing family and old friends after this horrible year!

[12bar]

Venting...

Went to a neighbors with W for a get together tonight. They announced that they are going to have their first child and I was really happy b/c they have really tried hard to have one. We don't have kids and always said we didn't want them but I think both of us had been rethinking this before the bomb dropped. I was happy for them but at the same time, sad for us...

It is so hard to go out and pretend like you are a normal couple when your W would rather be with someone besides you. I think my heart hardened towards her tonight, I don't want to be near her right now. I'm really feeling emotionally tired.