New to this Community seeking advice

[MichelleLT]

How about you counter by asking for the next holiday?

The only way to approach changing things up would be to say that you know you said okay, but you really miss the kids and want to spend Christmas with the boys. Is there a way you could get them earlier, or at least drive up there a couple days earlier and see everyone for Christmas?

How she reacts to that is hard for me to predict. You might have a better guess.

Asking for the next holiday would give her more time to plan. But it's a trade off cuz Christmas is such a big holiday for most of us.

Maybe approach it this way: you had the kids the last two Christmas's, I really want to spend some holidays with them and I miss the family/kids.

[JR09]

Michelle,

Good idea. I didn't think about doing this for the NEXT holiday. I'm glad I didn't call my W with my guns blazing. THANKS for the sound advice, Michelle

JR

[MichelleLT]

All Rs, no matter M or not, are about compromise. Getting along with people, let alone family, is not always easy. Whether you stay M or D, you will not always get to do what you want every holiday.

But there has to be balance too.

Depending on the personality of the other person, being nice and flexible can make them more inclined to be flexible as well (since they recognize you are doing them a favor). Others, especially if they are in a selfish phase, tend to take advantage of it. From what you've posted though, I don't think your W will do that.

[Ready2Change]

Last year, my W had Christmas with the boys. The boys live with my W, in her parents' home. This year, she emailed me that my dates to be with the boys would be 27 dec-2 jan. She said that's "as good as it gets". I replied that it was OK, no worries.

You now have an agreement in place. I feel this is a great opportunity for you to learn from and change your behavior in the future.

Here is my mantra:

What is best for my kids is best for me. I feel it is important for my children to have equal and frequent contact with both parents.

It sounds like your W is very controlling. My X is also very controlling, so I found it very important to "stand up to her" and not let her control me any more.

I thought a lot about this lately, and was about to send her an email or ask her to give me a good reason why I can't have the boys for Christmas THIS year, since she had them last year when we were separated for 6 months already.

Right now it sounds like there is an imbalance in parenting responsibility.

Is it a valid question to ask my W? Since I already told her the dates she gave me were OK, do I still need to make an issue about being with the boys for Christmas, if so, how should I present it to her?

It is important to state what you you want, give her choices and what the consequences to her are if she picks the wrong one. Have you read the boundaries thread?

IE: W, I feel it is important that the kids see both of us on Xmas. Since we are separated, I would like either Xmas Eve or Xmas day. Which day would you prefer?

If she does not pick one of the two choices you offered, you will have to set a boundary.

This is an action YOU can take. It may be filing for legal separation (or D) so that you have written agreements in place. Wait for her response, but do not reply immediately, come back here for input.

[JR09]

Long time no post. I have been trying to plan my leave time with the boys for Christmas. I have to say I have an issue with the dates my W gave me. 27 Dec-2 Jan is a week long. It's still a week, granted. but I wish I had more time with them.

I did something that is not DB approved today: I called my W's mom. Her and I have always had a decent relationship in 16 years. I needed her input or guidance on my plans to ask my W for more days with the boys. So I called. She was pleasant. Not overly nice and outgoing. Just polite. I'm sure she probably thought I was using her to sway my W's decision to keep the dates as they stand. I am aware of that. Maybe that's why I sensed a guarded attitude from her. Haven't spoken to her for at least 2 years!

My MIL just asked me to call back later and ask the question directly to my W. I'll do that this evening. I kind of regret calling. My emotions took over for that brief 7 minutes with my MIL. I asked about the boys and thanked her for what she does to help my W and boys each day.

Anyway. Not a good DB move, I know. But what is done is done. I'm sure my MIL will tell my W that I called, so I'm waiting for the reaction this evening. I keep thinking that I have just as much rights to the boys as my W. Why can't I spend more than 7 days with the boys? why can't I come earlier than 27 Dec and be with them too? This is just crazy. No common sense. I am separated. Not divorced. And I feel I am not asking for much. Just 3 or 4 extra days. This is crazy.

Well, DBing is hard. I didn't do too well by calling MIL. I acknowledge that. Why do WAS have to be so mean? Or I am the one at fault? I KNOW I am a changed man. I just wish my W could see that as well. But she probably is deeply stuck in her "fog of war". Maybe I am too.

JR

[MichelleLT]

Well, not necessarily anything wrong with that.

I would have chosen something a little more casual to break the ice with personally lol. But it was a polite conversation and mostly dealing with the kids, so it's hard to find anything wrong with that, other than W or MIL may perceive that as manipulative. MIL probably feels like you put her in the middle a little bit, and you may want to apologize for that - say it wasn't your intent, you shouldn't have asked her advice, then switch to a chatty subject and then get off the phone.

But of course, after all these years, you know MIL and W's personalities, and how they are likely to react to things. So you do what you know will get you the best result.

Have a good time with your kids regardless of everything else! I'm sure you all with have a blast!

[healthydad]

Hi JR,
I agree with Michell, nothing necessarily wrong with calling to talk about time with you children - though it might be perceived as manipulative, that response/perception is out of your hands, so you'll just have to let that be...

When I read your post, I started to wonder if maybe you need to do more about getting on with your life - which is not to say that you need to live as though you were divorced - but at least live more as though you are willing to move forward on your own. Though I can't speak to your wife's mindset - nor anyone's but my own - I would think that it's much easier to believe in the changes we see in another person when we see those changes as empowering - and even, somehow, liberating for them. Which is to say, perhaps there's a part of you that clings just a bit too much to your wife, to the relationship you had, and this clinging contributes to pushing her away a bit...just a thought...

That idea aside, I think you have every right to talk about your time with your children and to offer more of your own wishes for how and when you spend that time...While you are certainly being respectful of your wife's wishes - I think it might also start to make you seem kind of weak in her eyes...sorry if that's too blunt...I just remember going through moments like this with my STBX and now see that when I agreed with her about too many things, it allowed her to believe that she could walk all over me...these days that doesn't happen at all - and she seems a bit befuddled as to how to interact with me - but at least I feel a renewed sense of self respect...which feels very healthy - and good for me and for my kids.

And, yes, DBing is hard...but here's something else to keep in mind - DBing is not, at its core (and this might sound heretical) about saving a marriage - it's really about saving oneself first - and then sometimes the marriage follows. Try putting yourself first more - in a healthy, compassionate way - getting there was very hard for me, since it went contrary to my idea of giving...but it's made a tremendous difference in my life - and now I can give to others without wanting/needing/expecting anything in return (at least that's what I work toward every day).

All that said - I'm glad you get to spend so much time with your boys - and you can make the celebrations happen on any day you chose.

-Carlos.

[JR09]

Michelle, Carlos,

Thanks for the insight.I knew I probably could have done without talking with MIL with all the misconceptions it may bring. I have to tell you that my W called an hour later after I talked with her mom. Took me by surprise. We talked for 34 minutes.

I told her I wanted to revisit the dates she gave me earlier and see if I could come earlier to see the boys since that's part of co-parenting. I mentioned about not being able to be with the boys during Christmas for the second time. I told her that it was unfair and that I had just the same rights as a parent. After all I told her we are not divorced or even legally separated. She said she knew we weren't divorced because the D was dismissed. Then she added that in her mind we are divorced. She then proceeded to spew a lot of venom and told me that she wasn't coming back, that she wanted me to sign the D papers, that she would refile after the holidays. She did go into that venom talk during the first 15 min. of our conversation.

She asked me if I would continue to assume responsabilities for all the bills ,i.e the Suburban she drives, the credit cards. I told her that I've never shirked from my duty to support her and the children. However if she decides to divorce for good, then she would have to assume HER financial responsibilities and that I would not pay anymore for the car she drives, and we would split the credit cards, etc. I told her that is what usually happens in a D.

I never raised my voice and let her vent out her pain. She kept repeating the key words of "divorce, you never listen to me, I always had to do what was good for you, You never do what I wanted to do," etc. I told her that I changed in the past 18 months and she could verify it by calling the people she knows here where I live. She said she didn't believe me because "nobody can change psychologically in 18 months". I told her I did. I added I wish she could see the new me, see for herself that I am no longer the man I was when she left. I told her I didn't want a D.

Anyway, she went on and on. But all throughout, I really did well with keeping my calm and never fired back in any way. I told her I was past all the combat stress anger and the passive-aqggressive attitude that drove her to leave. Her tone of voice actually calmed down considerably and changed from venom filled to her normal self. I asked her how she was doing, how the boys were doing. We did talk about our finances. She then told me that I could come on 26 DEC instead of 27. Granted it's only 1 extra day, but it's still an extra day.

She asked me if I was flying or driving. I told her that I probably would drive to save money. That way I could also bring along my dog for the boys to enjoy. She asked where I'd be staying. She seemed to be very concerned for my dog and told me to take good care of him should he come. I reassured her about my intentions. The topic then switched back to the boys and she asked me if I would send my S7 his birthday present or if I was bringing it with me. I told her S7 asked me to bring it with me. Anyway, we talked about the boys some more, what present I am bringing, what the boys and I would do. She listened, I talked. She talked , I listened.

Then I ended the conversation after 34 min, and thanked her for taking time to call back. And that was it. At first I was very shaken by all that was said. But I replayed the phone call in my mind and came to the conclusion that I didn't do too bad after all. I put out boundaries in the case of a D, never fired back in anger, listened, restated, and gained an extra day with the boys. Not too bad in the great scheme of things.

I take your insights into great consideration and realize that I need to grow a spine without losing sight of being loving and compassionate. I understand that if the WAS perceives me as weak, she also may lose respect, maybe she already did... Anyway. a lot to chew on for sure.

Thanks again Michelle and Carlos for being there.

JR

[JR09]

I reflect on myself and the past 18 months of separation from my W. She left because I had a bad case of PTSD after returning from Iraq. My attitude was deplorable, I spewed venom occasionally in my interactions with my W. It was pure hell at times. So my W left, and rightfully so. It takes courage to leave one's H and remove oneself from all the terrible environment. I did tell that to my W a few months ago.

Since then, I had to take care of myself because of the circumstances with my W leaving. Neither her nor I couldn't go on like this anymore. So I really got serious about healing and working on my PTSD. But then, I noticed that my W became the one with the venom comments, rage over the phone. The pain repressed for so many years is now coming out of my W. As I am healing, my W is releasing all her pain and hurt in some of our phone calls.
I venture to say she is now dealing with HER PTSD, while I am recovering from mine.

The roles seem to be reversed. As I am coming out of my tunnel, my W is deeply entrenched in hers with no light in sight. I hope she will also emerge whole and at peace one day. Right now, all the repressed pain is coming out, and I don't blame her for voicing it. I just hope she too will find enough strenght to wanting to heal. It took me for my W to be a WAW to trigger my road to recovery. What will it take for her? I don't know.

JR

[JR09]

More reflection...

I thought about the phone call from my W a couple of days ago. It dawned on me that she is the one who brought up the R talk. She said among other things: "sign the divorce papers, in my mind I am already divorced, I'm going to refile after the holidays, I'm not coming back...".

Yet, through all this, she listened to me and our conversation actually ended in a decent way. I never escalated my tone of voice, and kept it really calm. I wonder why is there a need to hold on to all this anger and hurt after 18 months of separation? If my W is truly bent on ending it, why not just do it? I figure if one is to end it, they probably must feel at peace already with the decision...hence no need to spew more venom, pain, hurt, and anger over the phone after 18 months away from me.

BTW, her nephew stopped by my parents'home in Europe and had lunch with them. My W asked me for that favor a few days ago to see if her nephew could stay w/ my parents while visiting Europe. He did actually stop by, and will again tomorrow! I'm sure he'll tell her and her family how it was. My mother sure enjoyed having him over...

Anyway. could it be that my W was testing me once again with all her venom talk to see if I would react to it and lash back at her? Who knows. I'm glad I kept it composed. I know I did well. I know my changes are permanent. I am glad.

JR