Moving on with my life!

[Reincarnated]

Here are some...
http://www.ola-is.org/

http://www.12stepforums.net/

http://www.ola-is.org/olais/chat.htm

I just decided that I HAVE to get back, myself. I have quite a few meetings in my area, but some personalities travel among them that I don't want to really deal with, so I think I may join your efforts and go online, myself. Good luck with it - the other "homework" I got from my IC this week was to look into self-esteem articles (even though they might seem a little sappy, so she says).

[Startingover2]

Thank you so much. I am going to check those out. That way I can still have baby and not stress about leaving her.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

First, do not mention the alcohol. I truly believe this is something HE has to figure out, and you can help with your actions, not words. you know when you talk about those things he backs away, so that doesn't work.

DEFINITELY do that alanon, and that could be one of the actions.

I did agree with 25, except for the fact that you guys made-out. That's the part that if he is doing that on purpose to spend more time with baby, that is wrong, even if the end results are good. but I don't believe that to be his motive.

I would highly suggest you do not be physical with him again, unless it's something innocent, like rubbing shoulders or something. Because, he also needs to learn that he doesn't have to have a woman all the time, and if your there in a physical way, he won't learn that. If he moves on to another woman, well, then there will be your answer, that he hasn't changed yet.

I'm glad that he sent that apologetic text. did he do that the last time too? how often?

perhaps sometime if he brings up the R talk again, mention that you know both of you have been thru a lot and think it would be good for you both to focus on yourselves individually so that you guys will have a better chance at having a good R if you both decide to start all over again. and it doesn't mean that you don't see each other, but you just start out as friends. Maybe sometime you guys can write a list about the things you really like about each other, and those can be things you work on more. (just an idea for the future)

but still, remember, no expectations!! and start loving yourself, cause your too worried bout H still.

oh, and the reason you get stressed is because you are lacking faith. Faith that you are going to be okay, and your life will be wonderful! Start believing this and it will happen! and faith in God's plan for you.

[25yearsmlc]

So you say he hasn't really made any changes. He has said he's sorry and that he knows he screwed up and lost something good. Okay. And? I mean what's to say (other than, "we both made mistakes...but thanks for saying you're sorry"???--no, don't say it now. It's too late. If he says it again, maybe....)

You can't bring up R talks now b/c there is NO R for you two, except as co-parents. You are div, right? Okay so what's the R to talk about? Let him earn the right to even bring that up. You have no business going down that road at this point b/c there's nothing going on in that direction that you know of. He's made it clear that he's starting with time with her, even if it's an excuse to see you --which I hope it's not b/c I hope he cares about being a dad ---and by the way, why would you ask him R questions now anyhow? He has not made any of the changes you'd need him to make, even the basics...am I missing something here? His words of regret are signs of insight and self pity and that's...a start. But you can't do anything with it b/c it's just words. Back to you...

You have not mentioned any 180's or GAL activities of yours. Please, I've been effectively a single mom w/a full time job and there are things you can do so no more "but I have a baby!" Excuses...make arrangements. B/C if anything -it's MORE necessary for you to GAL and do the 180s b/c you are modelling for your kids. Remember you also have other children who are watching you to see how a woman of grace and and strength, handles betrayal and adversity w/dignity. Does she fall down in a "heap" and stay there? [b]Or does she pick herself up, dust herself off, learn and move on from?? Does she ever become happy again? WHEN?? HOW LONG??

Someday each and every one of our children will face a setback or betrayal of some sort, and they will be deeply hurt by them. You must teach them NOW that although your pain was deep, it was not fatal --and though it lasted longer than you wanted it to, it was not eternal. It passed....when you let it![/b] Let them see you now that way, so they know they can handle the curves life throws at them.

Your h left you for OW. Okay. Life didn't end. He's just one guy. You survived your first div and now you are wrapped around the axle about this guy. Why him? How'd you handle the first "amicable" div, and yet not handle this one?

I "waited" in the sense that I did not divorce my h but I filed for sep and I did NOT date OM when my h and I were sep. But we were not div. Neither filed. That's a huge diff. I assume if we div that someday down the road I might date again but no way would I be introducing my kids to any OM for some time...if ever. Also, when I say I 'waited' I don't mean I didn't do anything. I also moved on. I applied for jobs in other geographic areas (trust me, h noticed that although I had no idea at the time) and started classes I wanted to start. I began to envision my life without my h of 25 yrs and I began to force myself to see it in a positive light and THEN, I moved towards making that life my future. Yes It was harder b/c I had the kids but I wouldn't trade his solitude for having my kids around for anything. Frankly, when h wanted back in, I had mixed feelings. I liked being independent and could take it or leave it until I saw some real changes in him. You mention your h needing to live on his own awhile. Most men don't like that and By the way, Since you are div why does it matter if your h dates OW now? I mean, why is that any of your business? IS he promising not to for some reason?

I believe in moving forward with your life unless and until you see reasons for hope (not "hope" based merely on your wishes, but hopefulness based on a reason) and only then, assess how you feel about him and your life. You are so far ahead of yourself worrying about what he might be willing to do sometime in the future when the basics are not being done now....You are divorced from this man. You have a child together. There is more to your R with your first h than with this man. The m was not a long one and it was troubled from the start...

Stop the pressure. He screwed up his R's with his older kids and knows it. Maybe he will do some repair work later on, maybe not. But he's trying to have something with the youngest one. That's a good thing. Leave them alone so they can find each other and bond.

How can that be a bad thing? He won't take her away from you. At most he'll want to see her more and if the court says he deserves to and it's safe, then that's good for all concerned. YES it is good for all. And They're not going to hand her over to him. He doesn't want that anyhow.

What is it that you really fear? That he can rebuild something with her and not with you? Well honey, so what? Women are a lot more to handle than little girls who by nature, want to love their daddy's. Let her love him. Let her adore him. Let her think he's a hero. He needs that. Don't we all?

If you move on and make progress in your life, it's good no matter what happens. I never understood how so many LBSers think by sitting and waiting they are somehow more likely to get their WASs back. It's the opposite!

If your xh makes a move to catch up with you, you will be in a much better position for a real R. You admit you two didn't know how to fight and you admit in other posts, you still don't. Hence your fears of bringing up anything "controversial" like...money, kids, holidays, the past, LIFE, etc......

Look, There are 3 possibilities for you moving on:

1) If you move on & become a happier woman, that's great. If he does the work to get back into your life as a man, you will be much better at boundaries and "fighting fair" and you'll also know more about his chance of change since he'll have had to do some work/proving to catch up with you and this does not mean you are to be punitive to him. It's not about him or punishing him. It's about you moving on so he can see a woman he wants to be with, who is on her own and brings something to the table so he wants to do the same...it's you setting healthy boundaries that would apply to any man, and enforcing them. IF the guy can't meet them--no hard feelings, but "goodbye". Don't make this about him at all. It's all about you and your life and moving on and MAYBE LATER SEEING WHAT HAPPENS, IF ANYTHING...

2) And if by chance he makes feeble time consuming but half hearted or inconsistent efforts to get back into your life but thankfully you see through it and you choose not to let him back in, you will be in a healthier happier place that much sooner. You'll know you avoided much more heartache in the long run.

3) And if he makes NO noticeable effort towards you, then your happy place will come for you even faster. Don't look back and 2nd guess yourself.

Guess the 4th possibility is you wait some more and more....and focus your energy the way you have been....on him, the one element you have no control over, and you'll get where? What has worked? Nothing.

You are div. Now he wants to have an R with the d you have together and says nothing about you guys and your future. Am I missing something?

PLEASE DO NOT BRING UP R OR FUTURE TOGETHER TALK WITH HIM...IF HE DOES IT, LISTEN TO HIM...AND LISTEN SOME MORE. ASK NOTHING. DO NOT PROBE. JUST LISTEN TO HIM...he has some 'splainin' to do...

Remember most of all, again, that "victory" in these situations is not about how happy or miserable your xh is, but rather, victory is in how you live your life. He's not in your happiness equation...

As for OW comparing notes...well first off, why bother? But Okay now you know he's a habitual liar. So...the news isn't good about his character. He's a user. Okay.

Now he'd like a R with his littlest one and it is the holidays...so he may disappear in January. She's only 18 months old. If he starts to let her down later on in life, face that when it comes. Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow when you have plenty on today's plate.

Back to you....how are the 180's and GAL activities going? Do you stay at home full time? That is a priviledge most women lack but it has a downside too. What do you do to meet other adults? Can you get a regular sitter for a class at night or in the day or find some day care that would allow for it? (The answer is "yes you can"...) What about a part time job?

At some point you will need to rely more on yourself and less on CS b/c there won't always be any. Got any dreams you'd like to pursue? What would you be doing with your time and energy if you were not thinking/obsessing about him all this time?

I'm glad the kids still feel close to eachother and they have a blood sibling in common anyhow. The easier and more comfortable they are with each other, the better for all. Make and keep some New Year's resolutions and make at least one of them, showing your kids your strength in the face of adversity.

Hope this helps.
J-

[Reincarnated]

More posts to print out for me, too - thanks...

[Startingover2]

There is no reconciliation but hes talking like he would like to see if that is possible by spending more time together. He is communicating more, coming over alot more, wanting to do stuff with us, ILY, being affectionate etc. By doing all of this and straying away from the unpersonal coparent visitation scenario we had there is no way for me not to feel something. Bottom line for me is if he is doing this and trying to cake eat with absolutely no boundaries and no good intentions of a true reconciliation possiblity then its putting me back at square one. I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with letting him know my boundaries of no other women if this is what he wants to do. If he can't do that, then fine I will go on my way again and be distant and on my own. By distant I mean only talking about baby and that is all, and not letting him use my home as a swinging door when he pleases.

Yes, we are divorced but divorced people dont spend all their free time together either. They don't get personal. They don't say ILY.

I am not in a rush, but given how he tried to live both lives for so long before I don't want to go there again if he isn't sincere with his intentions.

[25yearsmlc]

are you saying he tells you ILY and (You say it back, don't you? What's wrong with saying "I'm not ready to say that"?) and he's wanting to ML and act as if you are already recon, perhaps to test the waters, but without verbalizing any committment to a R with you that would include at least monogamy...is that a re-cap? It is possible that rather than cake eating it's more of a holiday urge for a family fix? And is that totally horrible? And is it something he'd be mentally aware of would he simply "feel his needs" and then meet them with you and then...maybe...maybe in late January start to get restless again?

No matter, why not set the boundary to "co-parent & friend" time, (being "friends" gets a bad rap if the WAS just dumps all their probs on you but can be a great way to practice boundary setting and fair fighting, and building rapport but it requires detachment and you must read up on that and then BE WILLING TO DO IT...)

Have you tried DB coaching? They're VERY helpful. My DB coach said to "listen like a lover" when h called with his work related issues. If he spoke of R issues with the kids or me I listened and sometimes validated. Other times I conceded that his anger about something might be valid. He had paid all the bills for over 20 years and when I was paying them it was a real drag. A bill got missed and I said somethig about it (right after a DB coaching session) and h said "Well now you know how I feel about paying bills b/c you are finally doing them!!" Rather than lash out as I felt was expected, I said, "I know, and I want to thank you for that b/c it is such a stressor...."

Well H was silent for 30 seconds and then said..."you're welcome.' This was a break through more for me than him...


Another great tool is the Retrovaille Marriage Retreat/workshop IF your h is ever willing to go but that's way way down the road and it is what I'd say if the time came that your h actually said he wanted to recon--THEN I'd say do retrovaille first and see what happens then. You both need some vital tools and without them, you'll fail. Let me ask you---If you knew that no matter what you do, you two could reconcile BUT that your h will ultimately betray you or let you down badly, again, sometime, would you be able to detach better?

Why not assume that's the case, (without the anger!) until he proves otherwise? I'm just asking. Keep expectations LOW....IOW assume he primarily wants to be with the d, and encourage that and be upbeat and positive but be busy with GALand get the heck out of the house --or have a 3rd party over if the visits still have to be supervised....? Have some mystery.

It's one option. THe other is to go for broke now--take the chance- and act as if you reconciled, set a boundary he may break or ask him if he thinks he can live by it for say, 100 days, and both fully work on getting along well for those 100 days? If you choose this route, you have to back off of asking for more. And you can't obsess. AND if it fails you have to be willing to be done. You "sign up" for 100 days of trust to see how it feels to experiment with it and to see how it feels to put ALL the issues you two have, on the back burner for awhile and just enjoy each other's company for those 100 days, and bond with the baby and each other. If you cannot do this, you'll know that you are not going to be able to get past the past.

When h and I were sep, he was to attend a conference in Palm Springs in Feb and we had planned on going. I chose to go b/c the kids wanted to and I knew that it might be the last vacation with all of us. I decided for the 4 days I would NOT go with the anger or the recriminations or the questions. I refused to fight with him and chose instead, to make it the best 4 days we could have, for the girls's sake. I found I did like h more. And we had a really good vacation too. 4 days was a little hard but I focusses on setting issues aside knowing I was not sweeping them under the rug but simply not making our issues THE problem for those 4 days...it was a real bright spot and the first one in a long time. If and only if you can pull it off, I think it's worth a try.

Try seeing him through God's eyes for that time...here's something I wrote awhile back.

There is free will, and if our spouse's freely choose to act in ways that damage or even destroy our families, then we save the children and ourselves from further harm as best we can.

There comes a time in every marriage when each spouse sees the other in total stark reality without the passion of the new, and see them totally naked, with all their flaws, weaknesses, qualities, strengths, quirks, warts and all, and in that time, they make a choice. They may reject their spouse as simply too flawed, no faults of any significance allowed, only minor ones. Those people choose to leave.

Others choose to stay but only to make the other one cave in to their will, to nag, cajole, critisize, and "be proven RIGHT" until one of them finally dies, and some choose to stay but sigh for their whole lives, rolling their eyes in the long suffering manner of the martyrs they see themselves as. And then, there are others.

There are those who see the realities of their spouse along with their own many faults in stark light too. Somehow they see it all and yet, still, they choose to love. They choose to focus on the good, and to compliment it, and strongly favor it. As for the bad, and not so good, they learn to compensate, overlook, accept, or work around....they try hard to do what is the goal; to see their spouses as God sees them. Through His eyes... Seems terribly difficult, but not complicated. In fact, it is very simple. But evidently quite rare. And no, I don't think this means we "learn" to accept what is truly UNacceptable. God did not put us here to make us miserable. We are not here to be doormats. But still, we have a goal and I think that the goal of marital love probably is to learn to see someone for all of who they really are, including their histories and pain, through His eyes. That does not always mean one stays married to a spouse. But it sure helps.

Hope you found this helpful. ANd when your h accuses you of making him out to be the bad guy, look at your signature block to see how true that still is. You don't mention how many kids either and I cannot tell if you m and d the same year or what...
You just label him...work on seeing why that makes you out to be a victim and him to be a bad guy - and why neither of those labels are truly accurate.
good luck seriously, and try to get a session with a DB coach. Money's tight and maybe it's too late but it 's the ONE thing I would def do again if I could only do one thing in this sitch. I loved my T and MC but the DB coach was the most specific and helpful over all.

Also you still have not mentioned your 180s or changes or GAL activities...why? There's only so many ways I can say what I'm saying before it's just redundant.
Take care,
j

[Startingover2]

I got up early purposely to have time to read and think before baby woke up.

GAL: I am doing my best there. We get out and do stuff with other mothers and kids quite a bit. I am also busy with my other kids activities. There really isn't any 'me' time partly because of lack of funds and no childcare available that won't cost me. My older kids aren't home until 7 each night they are here. Small town life sucks when you are single as well. Not many single women here.

I am not sure exh's motives yet and that is what scares me. It very well could be holiday family blues and January could be a different story. He has said all of this before and then something happens whether he realizes he cannot make the changes or he gets weak and needs an ego lift.

I only said ILY that one time and its slipped . He hasn't actually said it since nor has he tried to be anything but friendlike in the past day or so. He said he wasn't feeling well yesterday and was sort of distant.

I also don't want to be used. I may be hypersensitive about this but on Tuesday when he was sweet and all I had gone to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription for my son. He called while we were there and asked if I would pick up his prescription. Then later that night I was telling him I was going to order this item for my son for Xmas. He said he had some stuff he wanted to order as well and asked if I could order it for him and he would pay me this week. It was like $140! Honestly, I don't mind running errands and such if the motives and intentions are right. I just don't know what to say to him right now. If I act like I really don't want to do that he gets defensive and says 'nevermind'. Then after I ran his errands he is sorta distant yesterday.

I did tell him before that to take advantage of his exwife knowing how she feels about her marriage and family would be a terrible thing to do. We have a child and no matter what we will never be able to walk away from eachother for good, so if he is playing games don't do it with me. His answers are exactly what I want to hear, but I am not so sure yet.

I would love to do the Retrovaille! I have always thought that looked incredible. That would be way down the line for us, but I would love to. Thinking about it though it would be like pulling teeth to get exh there. I could hardly get him in MC before.

I think for now, I am trying to do the friends thing. It will be an inner battle for me to keep the expectations low but its seems to be the safest option.

One thing I did think about...In the past 18 months exh has pretty much done his own thing with other women and his own life. He would have moments where he would try things here and then back off. He would get frustrated if I would ignore him or call him out on his crap and he would say "You have no interest in me or if you wanted to work on us you would speak up" Then when I do show interest he gets sorta freaked out. Make sense? In other words he wanted to hear that I still wanted him, got mad when I didn't right away, but then when I do he is wishy washy.

A mutual friend was over yesterday with her child. We were talking and she said she remembered when we were about to get engaged and he was at thier house and was saying that was what he wanted...a family. A home life. To be happy. He had that. Why does he keep throwing it away?

I don't know. I would love my family back, but I just wonder if he is ever going to be able to be the family man that I need?

Tonight my son has a wrestling match about 2 hours away. Its going to be raining and dark when we come home. He said before he wanted to go with us so we wouldn't drive back alone just baby and I. I mentioned it to him yesterday and he didn't seem like he was real interested. Not going to bring it up again. Its like he has these fleeting moments of being this wonderful family man and then it goes back to crap and selfishness. Hey, I don't need him to go and I didn't ask in the beginning. I am fine and have made it the last 18 months without him. I know that

Thank you so much again 25! Your posts make me think.

[bright_new_day]

I don't want to sound harsh, but it sounds like he wants a 100% comittment from you before he will even begin to make any changes in himself. That is sooooo wrong! He needs to earn the right to have a relationship with you, not the other way around.

[Startingover2]

Oh, I did do the DB coaching..but it was a few years ago when we were still M and exh first left. I liked it, and maybe should consider doing that again. Different things going on now.

I know he isn't the whole bad guy in our sich. I had faults too. Who doesn't? Mine were just a bit different. Mine were more crazymaking due to the infidelity, secrets, and lies. When we tried to R when I was pregnant he just wanted to sweep the past under the rug and not deal with anything. That and he wouldn't end his relationship with OW completely. Not sure how much physical went on but I know there was alot of texting and talking going on for those months. He just couldn't let go all the way and I felt like I was losing my mind with wonder all the time. When I did find out in late pregnancy that they were intimate at least that one time we went to MC. He told him no contact whatsoever and he needs to be transparent and reassuring to me until I get that trust back. He was...for awhile. Then went back to the secrets. By then baby was a few months old, we were getting no sleep, he started drinking again and the cycle continued.