Moving on with my life!

[25yearsmlc]

Saw your note on kevin4's thread and that you want feedback. But that's difficult b/c I found your threads going back 18 months or so (june 08) but not the very first one that tells the whole sitch, and rather than reading all the way through it again, maybe you can put a small summary in your present thread??

Otherwise, I just noticed a lot of cycles you go through with him...a lot...and it has been going on a dang long time for some pretty low "returns", or at least june of 08, when I could no longer find your older threads.
How long will you do this before you change something? You do realize you have choice here. REMEMBER THAT...

Update/explain what you are doing with the pastor and how you got there. IF it was your idea, then why do it? I mean, what's the purpose? Your h is the one who needs to earn back into the M although you have to keep the road home paved and smooth (i.e., don't make it harder than it already is for him) and make sure you can both envision a life together wherein you are not consumed by fear or distrust, and in which you know you won't throw this in his face every fight. He may fear that he cannot come back from this, and if so, let him know. Ask yourself what is realistic from you. Do you want HIM back, or do you simply want him to want back? There's a fine line but it matters. Some folks don't want to attend the party, but they sure want to be invited. His actions have taken a huge toll on your ego of course. And it's hard to "get" why he did what he did. Waste NO MORE Time on that. You will waste years of life wondering and pondering things for which there is NO RIGHT answer. IT's not a vitamin deficiency, you know?

I believe many m's that do not ultimately work out, are due to the WAS fears a not being forgiven, which is often well based b/c the LBSer doesn't know how, or doesn't actually want to or thinks the WAS does not "Deserve" to be forgiven. (HEY Maybe they don't deserve it, but wth are you working on then? If you feel they don't or can't deserve forgiveness or that you cannot pull it off, save everyone some time and energy and end this now) BUT if you think you might be able to forgive (it's a learned skill we are not born with and many of us did not see growing up) then work on that and make sure you are not being a fool--how? Ask yourself if you believe that he is willing to change the behaviors and thought process that lead them astray in the first place. If he isn't willing to do that (by actions you should have seen by now) then really, what are you doing? IMHO, if you have not seen significant and consistent behavioral changes in him, over time, then you are fighting a losing battle that will consume you, your life, and your energy that could/should be spent on re-building your life and caring for your children. You are modelling behavior for your kids. Ask a child shrink what they think your kids are seeing.

There is tremendous VALUE in seeing forgiveness and reconciliation and the restoration of a marriage, believe me. But if it's not that which they are seeing, if it's co-dependent or doormat crazy crap, then stop the cycle now...

j-

[Startingover2]

25..thank you. Very good post and you are right too. The cycle has been a long one and very repetative.

I have been thinking about what to do. Do I just go back to ignoring him or do I ask him upfront "wtf is going on? What are your intentions? How committed are you and how can you prove it?"

See...what I guess I am afraid of is by pushing with those questions he will get defensive and back off. Then again, if he does then it shows what his intentions are doesn't it? He runs. Always has. Things get hard, he feels smothered, or someone pushes him into a corner he will run.

By him saying "I want to do more things with you and baby and see where it goes" leaves it so in limbo.

Another statement he loves to use is I always make him out to be the bad one in the M that I obviously did things to contribute. Funny thing is I have never said I was perfect.

So, how do you ask him to step up without it looking like an ulitmatum or a control thing?

[volleydog]

I have been thinking about what to do. Do I just go back to ignoring him or do I ask him upfront "wtf is going on? What are your intentions? How committed are you and how can you prove it?"

See...what I guess I am afraid of is by pushing with those questions he will get defensive and back off. Then again, if he does then it shows what his intentions are doesn't it? He runs. Always has. Things get hard, he feels smothered, or someone pushes him into a corner he will run.

You have every right to ask this, and it can be asked in a nice supportive way so it doesn't sound like an ultimatum. By not asking you are giving him all the power to stay or go as he pleases.

If he runs because you are trying to give him what he is asking for you have your answer and maybe/hopefully closure...If he doesn't run, great you can work on things, slowly.

As you've mentioned before I think the real test will come after the holidays. No reason to run him off but try try try not to give into the temptation again...

[Startingover2]

I did ask him today. I said things have obviously shifted a bit between us, asked him how he felt, if he was truly sincere and others were out of his life.

His response: There are no others. Like I told you before I am taking it slow, day by day. I look at things different now.

Me:I am for that too, but we have a child together which changes the dynamics. Her stability and happiness are important to me. I think we both need to see changes in eachother..but in the meantime there is not room for anyone else in this relationship.

Him: I told you there is not anyone else.

So what do I do? I haven't pushed the drinking issue yet. I want to see if indeed he is drinking or not. If he knows that will bug me, he will try and hide it and I don't want to drag this out if he is.

He is coming tonite for dinner and put baby to bed. I feel stronger tonight in not getting physical with him. I have to stick to my boundaries.

[25yearsmlc]

25..thank you. Very good post and you are right too. The cycle has been a long one and very repetative.

I have been thinking about what to do. Do I just go back to ignoring him or do I ask him upfront "wtf is going on? What are your intentions? How committed are you and how can you prove it?"

He probably does not know. Plus even if he did, if you "reconcile" and you don't get along, all bets are off anyhow...and probably on your end as well.

See...what I guess I am afraid of is by pushing with those questions he will get defensive and back off. Then again, if he does then it shows what his intentions are doesn't it? He runs. Always has. Things get hard, he feels smothered, or someone pushes him into a corner he will run.

We're talking about YOU setting a boundary you enforce. I doubt you've done that much and I sense a lot of co-dependency in you and neediness....not many women put up this for such a long time and so little in return (he's not Tiger Woods paying you a ton of money to stay m)

By him saying "I want to do more things with you and baby and see where it goes" leaves it so in limbo.

How so? He wants to build some rapport with you and test the waters to see if you'll freak out or get controlling again or snoop or obsess, which you are about to do...lighten up and back off and decide what you can tolerate and what the heck YOU want. I don't think you know or if you do, it's that you want a crystal ball. None of us have one...

Another statement he loves to use is I always make him out to be the bad one in the M that I obviously did things to contribute. Funny thing is I have never said I was perfect.

Yeah but it's clear in your eyes that he's the "bad guy"...you know that as well as we do. So own up to the fact that you would indeed do things differently if you had the chance, and that you have learned a lot about yourself too. Pick one specific flaw you are working on, and own it, out loud, to him. See this ability as a strength of yours and not a weakness or a concession. He wants to know you'll lose the score card and you need to do that fast b/c you do have one and I can see it. Guess what? They have their own score cards and in viewing your m history you will NEVER use the same factors in scoring. So don't bother revisiting all the issues of the past b/c you will not agree. What matters is going forward, into your future together an seeing that similarly...can he keep his vows, and show you that by action, or not? And whatever else you guys have going on has to be addressed, like his drinking. Is he in AA or not? Are you attending Al-Anon and if not, why not?

You need to show him you "get it" and that you two could be happy together, IF he can keep his vows...simple, not complicated, but can be too hard for some men. If so, lose him now.

So, how do you ask him to step up without it looking like an ulitmatum or a control thing?

It's called "Boundary Setting" and there are books about it and c's and t's who can help you with this. I got help from a good MC, so don't be offended when I say that I think you need professional help. I got it, thank GOD...I was depressed when h left and confused as heck. I wasn't sure what being healthy and assertive was, versus being a punitive "lesson teacher" (which IS ALWAYS punitive b/c it not our job to "teach" our spouses life's lessons, life does that, and God). In the past, our m had been a very strong one, we had really been life partners in all our choices and decisions, so h's behavior really confused me. For a long time. I wasted so much time on trying to understand him but I don't think even now, that he understands all his choices...but he regrets many of them. And again, what matters is us going forward and agreeing on our future.

In your case, much of this does not sound out of character for your h but rather is the culmination of years of misbehavior or poor choices and you or his family enabling it to worsen until it came to a head 2 years ago (??)...
If this is not out of character then you need that much more help so you can learn why you'd endure this kind of self inflicted misery (and what your previous M was like as well.)

I dont' know any of this b/c I still don't have your past sitch well understood. But I think Your h is not a typical MLCer so I wouldn't go there much, b/c in there are at least 2 other dimensions to this; his drinking--huge flag and his OW's and their serial existence. It's not as if he had one "real love of my life" story which would also suck but for diff reasons...
GOod luck,keep posting but be ready to ACT and then don't keep second guessing yourself. Know what I mean?
j

[Startingover2]

7:45 and hes gone. No physical anything..not even a kiss. He came and ate dinner with baby and gave her a bath. He was here maybe an hour.

Now I have this other crazy thought. Obviously him coming tonight and alot lately has been off of our visitation schedule. When things were awful, I didn't want to see him much and made him keep to the schedule. I would turn him down when he wanted to come other times after bailing on his regular times.

Anyway, could this new interest in us be just so he could get close with baby? So he can come and go more as he pleases? That would really be horrible if that were the case. I don't want to come out and say it, but I guess its something I will have to watch. When he is here he is chatting with me but paying attention to baby.

25...I guess I am going to sit back, watch and see what happens. Trying to relax. Earlier it dawned on me that I was stressing that he may not want me back...what if I don't want HIM back without changes. Where are my standards? You are so right...this isn't all about me making the cut, its also about him making my cut.

I am sorry the past sich is difficult to understand. I will post a summary tomorrow if you would like.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

By him saying "I want to do more things with you and baby and see where it goes" leaves it so in limbo.

I actually think this is okay...because...when people are newly dating, you don't say, hey lets see where this goes...you just do it. But because you guys were married, anything kind of R that you guys start will ultimately say that you are together because you'll be a M couple again. So him saying this is still not leading you to think that everything is okay, but instead just to see what happens. This should be your thinking too because he is totally not ready to commit yet. IMHO.

does that make sense?

and yes, it needs to be about him making YOUR cut. not the other way around.

also, your thought about him wanting to be with baby...isn't that a good thing too? I mean, it's not good if that is his only goal..and I don't think it is...I think that is part of it. We do want him to be part of her life right, or want to be part of it?

you know what else...I think he needs to show you that he can be alone for a time. he's never without a woman. he needs to learn how to be himself.

[K4D]

I don't think there is much I can add to what 25 said. I don't know about the losing him part. But that is a personal choice only you can make.

As usual 25 is on the mark.

Kevin

[25yearsmlc]

By him saying "I want to do more things with you and baby and see where it goes" leaves it so in limbo.

I actually think this is okay...because...when people are newly dating, you don't say, hey lets see where this goes...you just do it. But because you guys were married, anything kind of R that you guys start will ultimately say that you are together because you'll be a M couple again. So him saying this is still not leading you to think that everything is okay, but instead just to see what happens. This should be your thinking too because he is totally not ready to commit yet. IMHO.

total agreement...

does that make sense?

It does to me.

and yes, it needs to be about him making YOUR cut. not the other way around.

also, your thought about him wanting to be with baby...isn't that a good thing too? I mean, it's not good if that is his only goal..and I don't think it is...I think that is part of it. We do want him to be part of her life right, or want to be part of it?

why the hell isn't it just fine for him to want to be a good dad and get close to the child? That IS the main thing to me. It's the only thing he can do that is pure right now, for which no painful past or obstacle course exists. Why make this about you first? Why is it either or? You are being far too needy--- and that leads to self centeredness...It bothers me that you want this to be mainly about you. That's not realistic, not mature and not all that selfless. I would think that the safest thing for you to do now, is to see how he is as a father, over time. Then, maybe, you might have an interest in him as a man. But put your d first. Raise her, and grow yourself...

you know what else...I think he needs to show you that he can be alone for a time. he's never without a woman. he needs to learn how to be himself.

Amen...

S2, just b/c you don't like what you see, doesn't mean it isn't there. I think more clarity exists in your sitch than you realize. Love is a verb and that means action. It is not passive. What's he done to get back into your life? Well, seems he's exercising his fatherly rights and wants to get close to the child you have. It's a start for him, to get back into her life...and for that, I say "THANK GOD!"

Now you want to know if "that's all" ---as if it's a bad thing. What were you expecting him to know at this point? You both barely know if there'll be a fight about the hour you pick her up or if you can take a walk with him since he has to have "supervised" visits, etc. It'd be insane for him to assume he could move on two fronts at once, you and her and whatever else in his life, when he can barely handle what seem to be normal things for men to handle. Like commitments and responsibility and sobriety. Doesn't he have other children? Where are they and how are his r's with them? Did he ever do any of the AA 12 steps? Did he try to make amends to you or apologize for what drinking did to your marriage or to his behavior? If not, that's hugely bad news for you...so be honest about it b/c one of the steps is making a moral inventory of oneself, and another is then making amends to those whom we harmed. These are among the hallmarks of successful recoveries and marriages that survive an addiction issue. (I'm familiar with this).

AS an aside, don't freak out about him being with the baby and then "wanting more" as in, wanting more time with her. Isn't that the idea here? That the more involved he is as a dad, the better the bond is between him and her? That's good for her and him. And, yes, more value/pleasure he gets in that R may yield increased interest in a R with you, as a byproduct. But please don't use her as a carrot/stick or make their time together, all about how it affects you. Your d needs to know that her two parents, flawed as we all are, love her deeply. Her interests must come before yours. That's what is best for HER.Please note that very few WASs are successfully "guilted" or shamed back into a marriage, at least not for long. (Oh If LBSers only realized that earlier). God knows I wasted my breath asking my h questions that always created defensiveness, e.g. ALL questions beginning with the word 'why'...as in "WHY DID YOU....??" OR "How could you do x??" Those queries will lead to fights or a WAS leaving...they're not designed for real answers if you think about it....you honestly think your h will slap his forehead and say "OMG now that you put it that way, I feel guilt-which reminds me of all the good times we had-- and has rekindled the love I have for you AND the ability to recommit has resurfaced...thanks!"

Sorry but it does not work that way and I know it from experience. I'm a L and made what I considered thoughtful and even brilliant arguments I'm sure would have persuaded the Supreme Court that I was 'right'....but it made no diff to h. I could not reach him. That had nothing to do with me and everything to do with him...and fwiw, it's better to be happy than "right"...

Don't confuse being stuck, with "standing" for a m...they are not the same. Plus you are divorced anyhow. (Though I have 2 diff relatives who div and remarried their x's years later. But in their cases, All 4 people each made huge inner changes and improvements in themselves, so that when they reconciled, which none of them had anticipated and all had GAL and detached they made it so much better than before. The 2nd time around was better! So it does happen)).

But there's an awful lot of toxic interaction going on here and some of it is on your end my friend. And that's good news. You know why? B/C the worst news to get when you see a mc, is that you are "right" and that your spouse is a "wrong" loser. Why is that bad for you? B/C Then, there's nothing you can do. They suck and you can't change them. But if you have a problem or an issue, then you have some control over outcome. You can control you. You can work on you and change your life and where the head goes, the heart will follow. It's WONDERFUL to have a problem and not to be "right"! Make sense? Hope so. Have you read much about detachment? And what did you make of the DB books? You don't use a lot of the terminology which makes me think you need to refresh yourself with them. They can and do work.

Anyhow there are some questions I asked that you have not answered...e.g., is he going to AA and are you attending Al-anon, among others? What are your GAL activities and 180's??

If posting here helps you, keep it up. But What else are you doing? What are your GAL activities? What are you doing that are 180's from your previous self? By now, there should be several...make sure you aren't spinning your wheels. It's amazing how much time we waste doing that and your happiness, your "days & nights" still revolve
around what your last interaction with him was like. You are seriously over analyzing and obsessing and that's a form of pursuit and worse, it stunts your growth. [color:#CC0000]"Victory" in these situations cannot be measured by how happy or miserable the x is, but how you are doing in your life.

You need to do as your thread says and move on...in some direction and you are letting him decide that-- when he cannot b/c he is lost. Consider this analogy: If your life were a novel, would you like how it's been going? What would you like the next chapter to be like? Who should be writing this novel, (e.g., your xh)?

Be the author of your own life/book. No one else will take responsibility for your happiness - so you better do it. What's stopping you?
J-[/color]

[25yearsmlc]

How long were you married? Each also married before with kids? And were you m AND div in 07? I'm reading the signature box and am confused...

And so you sep b/c of what? OW or OW#1 and then another OW? And a dui and an accident or what? How long have you known him, and what are the money issues? Education levels and professions? Does he say he has a drinking problem or a cheating problem or what?

Do you give him hope that he won't have to jump thru endless eternal hoops before you either stop punishing him or before you feel "safe enough" to let your guard down to fully love him? IF he wants to be fully loved and accepted, like most men, honestly, would he be better off starting fresh with someone new?
THAT'S THE KEY QUESTION HE HAS IN HIS HEART AND HEAD, WHETHER HE KNOWS IT YET OR NOT...if you know the answer, either show him the door, or show him the love but back off the pursuing.

If that confuses you, then read a lot on Detachment. It is crucial. K4 does not do it, so don't go to his thread to see it. ((He doesn't get it. He thinks you either give up totally or you stay stuck and waiting and fasting and praying...but not growing or changing or getting professional help when 10 strangers tell you to do so, based on what YOU said to them...)) Avoid those paths...

Make your own. Please, you have a small child who needs a mother who isn't preoccupied all the time with thoughts of her xh and what might happen or what he might think/feel/say/do and how it all affects her...that is NOT fair to your d...

Make a life for the two of you and let him be the best part time dad he can be...for now. Yes and see what happens. Do YOU think he should be proposing m to you now? I don't! He has his crap to prove to you and You have to prove all the things we have said to you...no holding the sword of infidelity over his head eternally, and no snooping, no obsessing--OMG a huge one--no reading into everything he says or does...back off. Seriously...back off, GAL and move forward in YOUR LIFE.

He'll catch up to you if he is willing and able enough... That's the test.

Take a minute to imagine life without him in it, but with you being happy....savor that. What's going on? What can you to move in THAT direction?

j-