Waiting More Than a Dozen Years

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

You may call me Captain, if you wish.

My wife said "You did a wonderful job." I reported what some others said. For them, I simply exceeded expectations (compared to other informational seminars that they hold on various policy issues).

For myself, I simply did what I always expect of myself when I making a presentation like this before a group whether it's to inform in a short seminar (as this was), to argue for a policy or position, or in one of my multi-day classes that I'm teaching.

As for not embarassing my wife...I simply did not veer off topic and take this opportunity to make it "personal" since her involvement in this group is one of the things that came up in the aforementioned argument.

Besides, I know what effect I have on people when I tell them how good I am at something. I know it when I'm there in person, I know it looking at some of the replies I've gotten to this thread. Just look at your own reply and it's right there (even though you may be unaware of it). Just look at the next to last paragraph:

Bottom line: if you were as confident and as happy with yourself as you make out, you'd think you were worth fighting for. Your actions show that you don't think you're worth fighting for.

So, I tell you how I am about my life and you don't believe it (so why should you believe that I "did a great job" or that I'm good at what I do? Why not believe that I am actually an embarrassment to my wife and am a functional incompetent?) More importantly, if you were in my place you would adopt the illusion that you would be worth fighting for and are telling me that I should adopt that as well.

I think I've been very, very blunt on this point.

I am not worth fighting for.

That is functionally independent of my overall confidence. Clearly, I am not happy about the way this portion of my life has turned out. I had a different idea about that. The reality of an initmate, shared life is quite different and once I gave up that expectation, it simply is what is so. Some could argue that I ended up with the wrong people and that had circumstances been different....

There was a time, when I was in my teens ans early 20's, when I allowed myself to think that I have something to offer and that something was desirable (worth fighting for). Some of that thinking, though, was four decades ago and I am no longer a teenager and I have much more life experience under my belt.

That idea of being "worth fighting for" and having something to offer was badly shaken by my first wife, her affair with a college student and her departure. Someone else (anyone else) was worth fighting for other than me. My intuition after that was that the illusion of being worth fighting for was all wrong. However, after a period of reflection and introspection to allow myself "to heal" and to discover and learn from my mistakes, I once again allowed myself to think I had something to offer and something "worth fighting for." Two decades later the evidence tells me that my insight after my first wife left was correct, not the illusion of being worth fighting for.

Beyond my name on a government recognized document that provides "legitimacy" for any offspring and being a sperm donor, there is nothing I have to offer or that certainly isn't worth fighting for because any male of legal age could provide the both of those (as my ex-wife so easily demonstrated).

The fact that I made a personal commitment to "be a father" and that turned out well (though there was no way to know how that might turn out) made no difference to me ex-wife and makes no difference in creating or sustaining an intimate relationship with my current wife. If anything, that commitment is best admired from afar.

My son (and my step-daughter) recognize and appreciate the efforts and have made that clear to me, so I have satisfaction that I did that "right."

Giving up the expectation (and the hope) that there is anything about me that is "worth fighting for" from the standpoint of an intimate relationship is an honest assessment of the evidence. That may not fit in with your self-image of yourself AND it fits the evidence and explanation of my life experience.

[Walking]

Hey Captain ....

I've been thinking about you.

Glad you updated.

Sad you've made a decision that your marriage is going to remain sexless.

So? What's the plan? Prostitutes? Women from work? Strip clubs? Pouring all your sexual energy into tantric self reflection?

V

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Hi Virginia

Not my decision. Hers. Mine is just the response consistent with my principles to my own fidelity in a marriage.

Not sure about the overall plan. I'm still looking at that and what's next (although I am working on some things that matter only to me). I will maintain my fidelity in the marriage. A while longer is not going to make any real difference.

[SillyOldBear]

Giving up the expectation (and the hope) that there is anything about me that is "worth fighting for" from the standpoint of an intimate relationship is an honest assessment of the evidence. That may not fit in with your self-image of yourself AND it fits the evidence and explanation of my life experience.

Guess you're screwed then, huh? Good luck with that whole giving up and being miserable deal.
You tell yourself this because it reinforces your misery and requires no big effort or change. . . .but it sucks and you know it sucks. And you don't truly accept it, or you wouldn't be here arguing with me about it.

You're hoping people here will tell you that's bullshit and tell you what in you is worth fighting for. I'll tell you it's bullshit, but I'm not the one you want to hear it from. You want to hear it from your wife, and you won't hear it from her until you show her what you're worth. It's convenient for her right now for you to be this miserable and hate yourself this much, but it's not making her happy. You're both going to have to leave these cozy niches you've grown into to be happy.

[SillyOldBear]

How did Columbus know the earth was round? Easy, there was plentiful evidence, from the curve of the horizon to the way ships came over it when approaching to the calculations of scholars going back to the ancient Greeks.

Why did Columbus believe the world was much smaller than it really is, and the distance to Asia therefore manageable for men in the small merchant caravels he proposed to use to get there? Because it fit his preconceived notion, and if it were true it would have been convenient for him.

Your perception of reality is distorted by misery. Don't trust it.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Guess you're screwed then, huh?

No, and that's the issue in case you missed it...not being screwed. Simply put, words are cheap without any action. However, when actions match words in very specific and measurable ways (in that they can measured in units of quantity, length and time), they can begin to be called "reality."

And since you brought up BS, I suggest that you take your own advice about "reality." For example, you made a "new age" reference. Since you brought that up and used that terminology(I did not), it apparently has some meaning for you AND you then act upon that meaning, that interpretation of what it means TO YOU, as if that were reality, as if it were THE TRUTH. And then you go and magnify the problem you set up for yourself by stating that if someone argues with you about your own interpretation of their situation (notice that we are not talking about your interpretation of your own situation) that it "proves" something.

Is that how you solved the sexual problems in your marriage such that you now have unfettered, unrestricted sex whenever you please (or more often than you please)?

As another example of your own unawareness of your own unreality, look at the story you tell yourself and then published about Columbus. Do you honestly believe the story that you wrote (as in where is your evidence?) or is it a "feel-good story" because the truth is not as interesting. Yes, the basic and approximate diameter of the Earth had been worked out several thousand years before by geometry.

And you completely ignore the purpose and the errors made by Columbus. First, he refused to believe the geometry and chose to believe overly optimistic (smaller diameter) estimates. Second, the stated purpose (and as far as I can discern this has not changed since I learned this stor 5 decades ago) was to dicover an over-water route to Eastern Asia rather than the over-land route that had long been used.

Columbus did not meet his stated objectives, did he? So, while he might be credited with finding something unexpected, he did not produce the results expected or promised. Relative to the subject matter here, that would be your "any hole is a success" strategy.

[SillyOldBear]

You are leaping desperately out of the way of the point . . . but you can't miss it forever because you don't really want to. If you honestly were as obstinately determined to fail as you're pretending to be, you'd be off somewhere else doing something else.

But you're going to have to make the scary leap to being honest about what you have to offer sooner or later if you want anything to change in your marriage. Declaring that you're worthless and waiting for her to contradict you is not working.

[Strong&Alive]

Guess you're screwed then, huh?

No, and that's the issue in case you missed it...not being screwed. Simply put, words are cheap without any action. However, when actions match words in very specific and measurable ways (in that they can measured in units of quantity, length and time), they can begin to be called "reality."

And since you brought up BS, I suggest that you take your own advice about "reality." For example, you made a "new age" reference. Since you brought that up and used that terminology(I did not), it apparently has some meaning for you AND you then act upon that meaning, that interpretation of what it means TO YOU, as if that were reality, as if it were THE TRUTH. And then you go and magnify the problem you set up for yourself by stating that if someone argues with you about your own interpretation of their situation (notice that we are not talking about your interpretation of your own situation) that it "proves" something.

Is that how you solved the sexual problems in your marriage such that you now have unfettered, unrestricted sex whenever you please (or more often than you please)?

As another example of your own unawareness of your own unreality, look at the story you tell yourself and then published about Columbus. Do you honestly believe the story that you wrote (as in where is your evidence?) or is it a "feel-good story" because the truth is not as interesting. Yes, the basic and approximate diameter of the Earth had been worked out several thousand years before by geometry.

And you completely ignore the purpose and the errors made by Columbus. First, he refused to believe the geometry and chose to believe overly optimistic (smaller diameter) estimates. Second, the stated purpose (and as far as I can discern this has not changed since I learned this stor 5 decades ago) was to dicover an over-water route to Eastern Asia rather than the over-land route that had long been used.

Columbus did not meet his stated objectives, did he? So, while he might be credited with finding something unexpected, he did not produce the results expected or promised. Relative to the subject matter here, that would be your "any hole is a success" strategy.

Earl,

Do you ever listen to yourself?

Do you ever look back at the posts you've written here, and ask yourself what it is you truly want?

Bear was showing you some compassion and some advice, yet you just couldn't help yourself - you felt compelled to try and score intellectual points off him. As if that's the point of you being here. Is it? Or does some part of you want your life to change. You're the one that called this thread "Waiting More Than a Dozen Years".

I think the real point of the Columbus example is this. There were things Columbus "knew" that were fact, and things he "knew" that weren't, but were merely beliefs shaped by his perceptions.

Your beliefs and perceptions about yourself, have been inevitably influenced by your marriage, which has been devoid of sex for the last 12 years. How could they not be?

Earl, anyone in that situation would have built up a lot of hurt, anger and resentment. You are only human. And it seems to me that those feelings come out in your responses to some of the other posters, in your attempts to intellectually cut them down to size.

It doesn't fool me.

S&A

[SillyOldBear]

S&A, you've got it right, but in the long view it isn't really that important. He's beating his head against a wall right now, and he won't want to do that forever. He'll get there.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

You are leaping desperately out of the way of the point . . . but you can't miss it forever because you don't really want to. If you honestly were as obstinately determined to fail as you're pretending to be, you'd be off somewhere else doing something else.

But you're going to have to make the scary leap to being honest about what you have to offer sooner or later if you want anything to change in your marriage. Declaring that you're worthless and waiting for her to contradict you is not working.

This the Captain.
For the recprd, as I begin this post, I had submitted 65 posts. You had submitted 275. Looking at your profile, you had submitted 170 posts in less time than I've submitted my 65. Since your being "back" you have submitted more posts than my entire period of time here. The reason for making this distinction will be evident in a moment.

You do not listen. Oh, you "hear" stuff, much of it (apparently) generated by the monologue going on inside your head.

So, let me go down this list point by point:

"You are leaping desperately out of the way of the point . . . but you can't miss it forever because you don't really want to."

You read "X" and you hear "Y" and then treat "y" and all the "meaning" baggage associated with "Y" as THE TRUTH. All those times you've said that you don't understand your wife...perhaps it's because you are not listening to her and are busy listening to yourself. I certainly grasp metaphor and yet this metaphor of "leaping desperately out of the way..." is the invention of your own imagination and has no bearing in reality.

"If you honestly were as obstinately determined to fail as you're pretending to be, you'd be off somewhere else doing something else."

Decribe, in specific and measurable terms what constitutes "failure" (or for that matter what constitutes "success"). If you can not describe the outcomes in specific and measurable outcomes (e.g, sexual intimacy including foreplay, intercourse, and afterplay that lasts for at least one hour, at least once every 7 days), then you can never succeed or fail. So, what constitutes failure?

As for being somewhere else, doing somehing else...looking at the number of posts, I suggest that I am somewhere else, doing something else. An example of something being both specific and measurable.

"But you're going to have to make the scary leap to being honest about what you have to offer sooner or later if you want anything to change in your marriage. Declaring that you're worthless and waiting for her to contradict you is not working.

.

Here is the "leaping" metaphor again. What I offer and what is "valued" are two different things. I can offer, for example, a large penis, one that exceeds the 95th percentile in both length and girth. I truly can go where no man (or most men) have gone before. And although I am "out of practice," I could offer either of my two wives hours of intimate sexual play to their satisfaction and to exhaustion if they so desired. There was never a request made by them that I found "off-limits." And since this is a forum on sex-starved marriages, this is the sort of thing that I can state that I offer as an intimate partner to a woman. if you can do it, it's not bragging.

And while sex is only part of the total way of being, my personal observation is that whole package of the sexual and intimate love is valued for only so long (about 7 years) before it starts before my two wives find it to be less valuable and it completely loses its value a little over 11 years from the very start.

That being said, what you have done is conflate and confude your own feelings with what I actually said. I said that "I am not worth fighting for." You can actually go back and read the words since I put them in bold text. What you "heard" was your monologue that told you what I said was that I was "worthless." They are not the same thing.

You would do well to listen to what people say to you and not what your monologue is telling you (and you might also question the "reality" of that monologue by asking questions like "are you saying that you are worthless?) rather than sweeping onto your own grand fallacy as if it were the TRUTH. It is one thing to listen and say it does not fit my reality and my experience. It is quite another to insist that your reality in the face of what is actually said is the way things "should be."

When you grasp that and live youer life through that in an on-going way, life will seem very different to you than "before."