OK, I was with you thru just about all of this, but now you've COMPLETELY confused me, as these two paragraphs completely contradict each other:
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
Again, my point is to suggest to RTGU that she resist the urge to force and even coerce an end to the A or to throw his sorry butt out immediately. There are alternatives that don't make the A the centerpiece, the obsession, the thing the LBS focuses on and tries to control. And it is those alternatives that will be more productive.
Even if they take the shape of: "I am only willing to live with you if you are not involved with other women." FINE
Either you advocate ending all contact ("affair-busting") first -- making that your main boundary -- or you advocate pushing it to the background and focusing on other things first.
I thought you were advocating the latter, but now I'm confused.
MY main point isn't ideological or even theoretical. It's PHYSIOLOGICAL. Because affairs are highly addictive, one needs to separate the addict (the wayward spouse) from the source of their addiction (the OM/OW), before any real progress can be made. Yes, there are simultaneous things the betrayed spouse can do, but they are mainly financial/legal (protection), and working on themselves (GAL). But don't look for a wayward spouse to be emotionally open to those changes while they're still in contact with their affair partner, cuz they're not.
I would encourage your daughter to call him sometimes, esp. if he's not calling her. Even if she seems content to not have the contact, I'd rather see you err on the side of doing what it takes to ensure she continues to have a good relationship with her father.
Your other question is anyone's guess. Best not to read too much into those things ("mind-reading").
I've said that over and over. We AGREE about all things present. You just object to me saying that in the past you were very moralizing with your W. But you've always objected to me saying that, even when others agreed with me. It is ok. Maybe someday with greater distance you'll agree with me after all, maybe you won't. Either way is fine. Though, truthfully, I don't know why it pisses you off for me to say that you've grown a lot and moved away from moralizing/coercion to a place of effective boundary setting that allows real love to bloom. Oh, right, that's enough to piss anyone off, lol.
Because, I flat-out reject your premise.
A. What I did at the time (exposing her affair, insisting she end it before wasting my time and my family's limited finances MCing, establishing a firm boundary of "I will not live in an open marriage," using as much intel as necessary to protect my interests, and then eventually insisting on 100% no-contact and full transparency when she ended her affair and wanted to come back to the marriage . . . I think these were all absolutely the right things to do.
And I'd do them again.
And she THANKED me for doing them (said "thank you for fighting for me"), and said she RESPECTED me for doing them, and understood WHY I did them.
B. Taking a softer stance later on, two years after she ended her affair (and remained loyal to the marriage), was ALSO the right thing to do at THAT time.
Just because "B" was right, doesn't make "A" "coercion" and "moralizing."
Or maybe you just consider a stance of "I consider adultery morally wrong, and I won't continue to enable it" to be "moralizing." In that case, I'm guilty as charged.
Puppy- How do you say to someone who doesn't really care what you think, "I will not live in an open marriage?" I know as far as he's concerned, our marriage is already over in his eyes and he can "do whatever he wants". I mean, do I just say it and give him the ultimatum to end it or leave? I guess I'm just not sure how to set that when I already know that he won't care what I say, he's not ending it. He doesn't flaunt it, he doesn't call her or text when he's home in my or daughter's presence, he takes cash out of the bank so I don't even see where he's going, I just don't know how to set that boundary?
Puppy- How do you say to someone who doesn't really care what you think, "I will not live in an open marriage?" I know as far as he's concerned, our marriage is already over in his eyes and he can "do whatever he wants".
Then give him what he wants. Walk away.
Originally Posted By: RefusingToGiveUp
I mean, do I just say it and give him the ultimatum to end it or leave? I guess I'm just not sure how to set that when I already know that he won't care what I say, he's not ending it.
If he is flaunting his A in front of you and doesn't care about your feelings on the subject, that's because he has very little respect for you at this point. You cannot build respect in his eyes without taking a strong stand and being willing to weather whatever he throws at you as a result. (That does not mean that you take any kind of verbal or emotional abuse, though.)
You tell him enough is enough; you didn't marry him with the idea that you were going to share him with another woman, and if he continues the A then he can get out and you're going to file for divorce. If he leaves, or decides to let you leave, then that's the answer you get for right now.
Something to keep in mind is that rebound relationships and relationships that begin out of an affair rarely last. The love chemicals, the thrill of sneaking around, and the stolen moments of time rarely translate well once it comes to living together and deciding whose turn it is to do the laundry.
Me: 44, Wife: 39 M: 17 years T: 20 years Bomb on 08/25/09 1/13/10: MC started 1/28/10, 2/8/10: More bombs 8/28/10: Wife moved out No talk of D, no movement
One year ago when my W was caught up in her A, I thought the same as you. I felt powerless. She was infatuated with him, she didn't care about me, so what did I have to use as leverage?
I've since realized that she wasn't nearly as certain and confident as I thought. When I'd take a hard stand, she'd start to doubt herself. When she saw me weaken, her strength multiplied. IMO, you do need to be willing to put the M on the line. That's your leverage.
As an example, my W told me she didn't love me, she told me our M was over, she told me to let it go, she told me she was moving out. Yet after I found out about her A, I told her I was considering filing for D, and she got very angry and shouted "If you D me, I'll never forgive you!" Her reaction threw me off balance, because I wasn't expecting it. After everything she said, why would she care if I divorced her? Because she knew she was way out on a limb, and she wanted to control everything. The threat of anything getting out of her control made her panic. The next day, she was in the strangest mood, and was flirting with me, and told me she didn't like the thought of me being with someone else. Again, threw me off balance because it seemed so incongruent with her other actions.
Moral of the story, refuse to let him be in control. Remove his sources of security. Make him see that if he's going down this path, he's doing it alone, and he will have to suffer ALL the consequences.
If that is your boundary, it doesn't matter whether he cares. Boundaries are about YOU, not about controlling him. If he does not stop the affair (by whatever date you say, which could be NOW), then stop living in an open M.
-- separate your finances, legally if possible. if he is in an A, he will almost surely spend excessively.
-- make arrangements for one of you to move
-- stop any non-business or non-co-parent contact. A husband having an affair is not your friend, not your lover, not your parnter.
-- get the support you need without relying on him. Protect your interests
-- set up a childcare schedule
-- etc...
If it is an in-house separation, then drop only the moving plans, everything else stays.
RTGU: I will not live in an open marriage H: Too bad, don't care RTGU: Let me be clearer, I will not continue to share a home, share finances, share time with you while you continue to have an A. H: Too bad, don't care, I'm sticking with my nookie-on-the-side RTGU: I see, that doesn't work for me in the context of our M, but it isn't certainly your choice. So, let us first work out a childcare schedule. We can look at finances and housing options later.
Puppy- How do you say to someone who doesn't really care what you think, "I will not live in an open marriage?" I know as far as he's concerned, our marriage is already over in his eyes and he can "do whatever he wants". I mean, do I just say it and give him the ultimatum to end it or leave? I guess I'm just not sure how to set that when I already know that he won't care what I say, he's not ending it. He doesn't flaunt it, he doesn't call her or text when he's home in my or daughter's presence, he takes cash out of the bank so I don't even see where he's going, I just don't know how to set that boundary?
It's a great question, and it comes up here often.
You lay out sub-boundaries underneath your Main Boundary of "I will not live in an open marriage." (and it's OK to keep that Main Boundary out there, just in case they think you've wavered on it, but yeah, I know, they are flaunting it, but then again they don't know your deadline, either. You should add in a few "I won't wait forever"s to the mix).
Small boundaries -- mine were:
1) "I will not in any way financially enable your affair." I cut off paying for her tummy-tuck Visa payment, her cellphone, haircoloring (still paid for basic wet cut), lingerie, etc. Paid only for her basic needs (she was a SAHM, earning only a very small income as a personal trainer).
2) "No texting or calling OM from inside of our home."
3) "No texting or calling OM in front of the boys (our sons), WHEREVER you are."
4) "If you're going to be out that late again (she had come home at 3am once, after telling me "I won't be late"), don't bother coming home, as I will lock up the house, turn out the lights, and turn the alarm on." (she never did it again)
5) "NO MORE DECEIT." (this was laid out 60 days in, as I had just HAD it with her lying to me, our adult children, and her own parents. I told her she had to either tell them the truth, or I would, and I would show them my evidence, and that she had 5 minutes to decide)
These sub-boundaries might be different for each person, but those were mine. It should whatever things YOU simply cannot abide, as a matter of personal integrity.
