I really appreciate the counsel I am recieving here. Yes, I want to listen to what works. Honestly I have calmly and clearly told W that boundries have been crossed and do not accept these behaviors. I told her this one on one and in counseling. I have not linked the conduct with any specific consequences. (If you don't stop, I am leaving, etc.--it just isn't true). Beyond this, what further specific steps would you recommend? Again, I really appreciate the input and I am open to challenging my thinking.
I am always amazed when I hear people talking about setting boundaries. You seem to be doing the same thing that I see most people do regarding boundaries. You are trying to make a boundary that is easy on you and still keep your self respect.
However.. You are dancing all around the only boundary that is staring you in the face that needs to be addressed. That boundary is HE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR. THAT is the boundary. That is what you need to address. That is the boundary that will gain back your self respect and help him to respect you. You can try and make boundaries on other issues all day long, but until you get to the meat of the issue then you are just wasting time. If you were wanting a boundary from keeping your dog to leave the yard would you first try to set a boundary on stopping the dog from barking??? Wouldn't it make more sense to put up a fence? The barking has nothing to do with the dog gettng out of the yard. The FENCE is the boundary that is the correct answer, not the boundary on stopping him from barking.
The TRUE boundary here is this... "I have done some thinking and this is what I have decided. I think it is best that YOU move out. The sooner the better. I will not live in a marriage like this. I will not live with a man who is having an affair. I wasn't a perfect wife, but I now realize that I have tolerated you having an affair and I will not do that anymore. I want you to find another place and be out of here by________"(give him a week or two)...
Now, THAT is a boundary. THAT will get your self respect back. You are focused on trying to set boundaries that miss the mark. The boundary IS NO AFFAIRS. There is nothing else to talk about. If that is what he chooses, so be it. You will not be a party to it. Then let him go and let him see that you are moving on without him. He wants to be friend then? Let HIM try to be YOUR friend. You can be friendly, but trying to be a friend with a spouse in an affair is nothing more than pursuit and weakness. They sense that. (which you admit he basically said of you) He can't respect you until you SHOW him how tough you are and that a third person is not an option for you. THAT is the boundary. Stop being wishy washy about boundaries. Get right to the real boundary here.
I will phrase the boundary like this:
"wife, I have decided I won't share you with another man. If you continue to spend time and energy away from this marriage then I will ask you to leave. To ensure accountability I will have access to your phone, e-mail, calendar, and phone records. I will not tolerate an affair and I will ask you to be gone in __________ if you continue to have contact with OM."
You can't waver on this. It's strong and honorable. It's all about her choices. It's you having self-respect.
Do some homework on what attracts a woman to a man and why boundaries work in healthy relationships before you respond.
You can handle it.
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Sorry, Wonderful -- I'm firmly with Coach on this one. Remember, it worked for him, and he wasn't even dealing with infidelity in his sitch. How much MORE important -- necessary -- is it when there is an active affair going on?
I do agree with you on transparency, however -- that can't be insisted upon until such time as a wayward spouse wants to come back to the marriage and asks you "What do I need to do?" But on everything else, you have to take a strong stand. (NOTE: you can USE INTEL to confirm that your boundaries have been violated, and let your consequences kick in, but I don't think you can insist upon it to a spouse who is wayward, Coach, b/c they simply will not care).
I see a lot of this "I have clearly stated my position," and "She clearly knows where I stand on this issue" around here lately, and I think it's a big fallacy that needs to be addressed. A legislative body can "let the public know where they stand" on some issue, by passing a law. But until a cop somewhere ENFORCES the law, absolutely no unwanted behavior has been addressed.
Women tie their feelings of love VERY closely with their feelings of RESPECT. Until a woman can respect a man, she cannot love him (if you doubt this, just ask the women on the board). (For further reading, see "Love and Respect," by Eggerichs). Your wife will not respect you if you sit passively by with a "you know where I stand on this issue" stance, without setting and enforcing firm boundaries.
Wonderful, you give Hope4Us as an example, and his was, indeed, a Job's level of patience and unconditional love for his wife. I personally couldn't have done it, and think very, very few men could. But remember too that Hope4Us also aggressively exposed his wife's affair, including to their own older children. Having taken that strong stand, his patient, loving stance thereafter was all the more effective, and even then, he never wavered on his boundaries.
I am open to suggestionsbut I feel I am on the correct path.
Wonderful,
When I posted to you about 15 minutes ago, I hadn't read your entire thread. In fact, I hadn't read it since posting to you yesterday. In response to the first half of your quote above, and now that I've read all 4 pages of your thread, I say respectfully:
"No, you're not."
, and in response to the second half of it, I'd say that your "feelings" (instincts) have gotten you to where you are today: your wife is having an affair, and lying to you about it, and is actively in pursuit of additional financial support from you.
You're not open to suggestions at all. You've been dismissive of all of the advice you've been given so far, and are making excuses for your wife, but mostly for your own passive behavior in the face of this predator. And that's exactly what the OM is -- a predator.
In the past five years, I have studied literally hundreds -- probably thousands -- of affairs. I have deep knowledge with more than a dozen. I have yet to see a man win back his wife by doing the Mr. Nice Guy routine.
Hope4Us is a rare bird -- he had the strength, character, patience and intestinal fortitude to stand for his marriage during his wife's continued contact with OM, and lack of remorse, for two years. Most people -- especially men -- cannot do that, in my experience. It takes an INORDINATELY strong and detached personae, and even then it MUST be accompanied by strong -- enforced -- boundaries.
Wonderful, do you want advice that you will actually put to use or do you just want a shoulder to cry on and a place on the internet to wallow in self-pity?
I could reiterate everything that Coach, Gucci, Puppy and countless others have already said but seriously my energy is a precious commodity, I'm only going to invest my energy into someone that is willing to put the work into this that is required, nothing less.
This is all counter-intuitive, this all involves doing things that seem scary and pressing forward even when your fear tells you to hold back - this is also about personal discovery for yourself, what you are willing to do, how much you're willing to grow and develop into the kind of person that can handle this situation.
There is no trying this or that, there is only doing what works and what works is definitely different from your current approach.
Do you want results or do you just want to complain about your situation and your spouse?
[quote=Wonderful!]I later called to tell her that in retrospect, I should have chosen my words more carefully. She was dismissive of the appology, but I felt it was necessary to thwart her and perhaps get her to focus on my good intention behind nothing more than a thoughtful gesture. Was this a good play.
You asked if this was a good play but didn't you get your answer from your wife's reaction? So why ask us when you knew already that it didn't work.
Trying to convince yourself otherwise?
Be a wussy and be treated like one - plain & simple: your wife seeked out a more masculine mate, wonder why that is? Some sort of sexual polarity shift happened, she became more masculine, more aggressive, more assertive, sometimes angry and you became more submissive, working harder to show her you'r worth it (which really worked didn't it?).
Hmmmm.... she's having an affair and yet you wasted time apologizing to her over the connotation of your words in a specific dialogue you had with her?
Was her apology to you about her affair warm & heartfelt? I'm interested to hear more about that.
Thanks. Well, yes, I have established firm boundries about the OM. Whether she honors those is entirely out of my control.
I think you are correct. I should not have apologized when I had done nothing wrong.
Initially, I made all the wrong moves. In the last week or so, in her presense I have maintained a confident, happy and composed front. I focus my attention on our children and myself. It really seemed to enrage her sunday night when I put earphones on while we were doing our sunday night cleaning routine. I have made great strides in backing off and not initiating contact for the most part. But I confess to the occassional relapse. But this too is a balancing act of being lovingly detached. I have stopped affection and ILYs. But if she does want to talk about something that is bothering her, unrelated to our relationship, I want to be there for her.
I would have let her do it herself - you can stop at anytime, just an fyi.
She is used to you being there and helping, I'm not sorry when I say I wouldn't have spent anytime doing anything with her. I would have put the ipod on, earphones on, sat on the couch and put my feet up and read a magazine or something and totally ignored her.
Women tie their feelings of love VERY closely with their feelings of RESPECT. Until a woman can respect a man, she cannot love him (if you doubt this, just ask the women on the board). (For further reading, see "Love and Respect," by Eggerichs).
As a woman, I will say this is spot on. No respect = no love.
I guess I did not attach specific consequences to them. I simply stated that he should not come to our house when I am not home. (On the day he was there there were other people present.) She agreed. I left it at that. She has said in counseling that she does not have those kinds of feelings about the OM, but she is also very confused. It could re-emerge.
"Don't do it again please."
... and then when she does it again, she says sorry and then wash rinse repeat - those are your current boundaries and you will notice that they aren't much more than words.
What are the consequences? Sometimes saying sorry just isn't enough.
I confronted her with my suspicion and she told me she lied about him riding with her.
Have you asked her why she lying constantly?
A person who is doing nothing wrong doesn't really need to hide anything.
I can't tolerate lying, personally in my own situation, it made me sick to my stomach, that's when I started losing respect for my W. If you have respect for yourself, you won't tolerate people who lie to you.
Let them go, move forward with your own life, detach, have a great life and start limiting your interaction with her.
