Just posted this to Thinker on his thread and wanted to save a copy of it on mine.
Quote:
Thinker, I've been watching your thread for a while. We have one thing in common, we're both INTJ's and we're not the easiest people to read. With that I'd like to share something with you that may help.
Last week my W and I went for our routine annual eye check up. We see the same ophthalmologist and 'share' the appointment time. Earlier on in her life Mrs Gno (pun intended) had corrective surgery done on her eyes. Her vision has been causing her discomfort for a while and the results were not really good.
On the drive home I could see she was upset. I, being a dumb-hard-ass-man, wasn't sure how to communicate support through the freeze shield. Finally I plucked up the courage when we stopped at a traffic light. I put my hand on hers, gave it a squeeze and said, "Don't worry, I'm sure everything's going to be OK." Then I removed my hand and retreated to my 'corner.'
A couple of hours later she came into my office and said to me, "Thanks. Today I saw a glimpse of the man I fell in love with." And I got me a hug... from the ice-queen!
Don't look for earth-shattering ways to display your affection. Sometimes its the small simple things that we do and say that communicate affection. I hope this gives you some ideas.
M:11 | T:12 | Status: Married 4C's of WAS communication: Cool, Calm, Collected and CONFIDENT
Wow good for you for putting yourself out there. I think I need to do the same. My H makes all the contact and is such a sensitive man I think its about time I do something small like you did. I don't know if you read grrr's new post today, if not, go read it. I think i may make sense it some cases. As it did in yours today. And maybe mine in the future.
M: 31 H: 29 Married: 6 yrs Children : 7yr old, 5yr old, 2yr old
Separated: Sept. '09 Moved Back In for wrong reasons: Nov. 30, 09 Recomitted to our Marriage: Jan. 25, 10 Threatening to leave again: July,14
About four years ago we decided to move to my wife's country. This was not a light decision and there were many reasons for it. One of the most important was to reunite her with her family. Her folks were in poor health and she was concerned they would pass away and she wouldn't be there for them. For years I had heard nothing but praise about them, how close they were (something I'd always wanted) and how she missed them. Another reason was, where we lived, that she was confined to be a housewife due to language barriers and other things. So we sold the house, cars, some furniture, most of our electronics and appliances that would not operate in her country. Packed the rest of our goods and shipped them off.
From the minute we arrived we encountered difficulties. We found ourselves navigating bureaucratic minefields of idiocracy. If there was a way to make a mountain out of a molehill, her country had found a way to do it. Because I wasn't fluent in the language the burden fell on my wife to deal with the issues. Not only that, pretty soon everything became an issue: conflict in her 'perfect' family, lack of support, finding a place to rent, opening a bank account... you name it, there was a problem.
In the eighteen months that followed I watched the beautiful, happy and ever-optimistic woman I married become frustrated, pessimistic and bitter. The fantasies of her perfect country, family and friends were obliterated. It's not something to be taken lightly. She would constantly complain and hated being back. Her family instead of offering support would off-load their problems onto her. It wasn't long before everything became my fault. She missed her previous life and friends. Electronics and appliances in her country were exorbitantly priced and we couldn't afford to splash out on these luxury items until we attained a sense of stability. (During this time Gnosis learns: Do not part woman from her toys)
Adding insult to injury, I was not allowed to work, drive or do anything. I was caught in a catch-22 situation. I couldn't work and couldn't leave the country to find work. If I left while my application for residence was being processed it would be canceled. Having been through the process of immigration before, I was aware things would not be easy.
In the face of constant, never-ending negativity my postivity waned. I had no control over the situation. My ego took a constant beating. I did whatever I could think of to cheer her up, to no avail. During this time I swallowed my own concerns and angst to ease her load. As things progressed I could do no 'right' and the smallest thing would trigger her to find fault with me for the most ridiculous things imaginable.
Each time she triggered I withdrew. Being together 24/7 for over 18 months had worn me out. I needed space and couldn't handle it anymore. She wasn't happy, I wasn't happy. I was worn out, depressed and had no 'emotional release.' My head still spins when I think of that time. I needed to get out of the toxic environment I was in. I didn't want a divorce and didn't believe in it. The only thing I knew was that if I stayed it would eventually lead to it.
So, what did I do?
I lied. I told her I didn't GAS (give a shirt) about staying in the country any longer; the government could take their residence visa and shove it. I was going overseas to find a job. (I knew I was in no psychological condition to work on a new job and didn't really intend to look for one). Ironically my residence visa came through two days before I left. My self-esteem was completely shot and I felt like a complete failure. I couldn't even think straight. At this point the MLC/WAS script calls it: "I need some space to find myself."
How did I get to the point of wanting to walk away?
When I looked at my wife I saw the complete antithesis of the woman I had married. She never smiled. Was always complaining. She pointedly looked for negativity everywhere. If the sun shone, it was too hot, if it rained it was wet. Whenever she opened her mouth 'bad news' would flow. She allowed her family to dump on her and would return home and dump on me. That's all I heard... problems, problems, problems. Later on she didn't even need to utter a word. A look, an expression on her face, body language, an action... was all that was needed express her disapproval of me. People don't need to scream to communicate. With this constant onslaught I withdrew emotionally and physically. Every time I gave something it was reciprocated with a slap in the face. I reached the point where I had nothing left to give
My life had been my wife. I felt I had failed her and myself. Her Venus-speak led me to believe I was guilty of everything. At one point I honestly thought she would have been better off without ever meeting me. Not only that, her constant nagging and complaining had killed whatever attraction and love I felt for her. So I left. I needed to figure out what I wanted to do - free from external factors that could influence my decision. One thing that is important to mention here: I was in emotional pain and had no 'resources' (supportive family or friends I could trust) to fall back on. I never shared or made known the crisis my marriage was in to a living soul. My wife STILL doesn't know. Some would say I should have told her, you know, 'share your feelings' and all that new-age mushy crap. Sorry, but that's not my way. Whack me over the head with a 2x4 if you want, it won't make a difference.
Now that the background has been set I'll post the examples and how they affected me at the time. I'd like to split them up because I'm sure that someone is going to whine about how wrong I am. How my wife was 'talking to me' as someone pointed out in an example I posted on another thread.
For the 'enlightened' readers: Before you climb on your high horse and barge in with guns blazing I'm not posting this for you. You don't need to correct me, I already get it. All I'm doing is providing a Martian interpretation for left-behind women who'd like to understand how their communication impacts their husbands.
If there are four words that are guaranteed to strike terror into any man, even the most hardened. Those words are "We need to talk" In my opinion they should be stricken from every woman's vocabulary on the planet. When a man hears those words this is what he understands:
You're in BIG TROUBLE mister and you're going to get it, now!
WARNING!!! WARNING!!! Enemy attack imminent!
Red Alert! Battle stations! Battle stations!
Raise the barriers, man the walls, pull up the drawbridge.
Shields up!
Brace yourself for impact.
This is going to get UGLY.
To put a man on the defensive, and nullify any effect of whatever it is you want to discuss, then just go ahead and use those words. You will accomplish NOTHING.
Do you want to know why?
Those words have been associated with reprimand and punishment. Every time a man has heard those words they are followed by bad news. They are used when: he is about to get dumped, when mama wanted to punish him, when his boss has turned down his promotion etc. In other words, he's been a bad boy and he's going to be forced to hear why before his punishment is handed out.
I wish women would remove that phrase from their vocabularies. I STILL get nervous and jumpy whenever I hear those words.
So, you wanna talk to him. Yeah, you have serious issues, I hear you. How do you go about doing this the RIGHT WAY? It's not easy, I know. Let's go through the WRONG ways first:
You do NOT ambush him as he walks in after work.
Neither do you do this while he's watching the news or a sports game on TV.
And definitely NOT in the bathroom, when he's on the pot doing his business. You laughing? Don't. My wife did this to me once.
Put your feminine wiles into practice. Timing is of paramount importance. You need to find the time that you know he is the most relaxed. Next, is your wording. You broach the subject by asking his opinion or his help. e.g. 1) I have something on my mind and need your input. I'd appreciate a minute of your time. 2) Can you help me solve a dilemma I'm in? I only need a minute.
If you cannot find the right time, ask for it. "H, when you're up to it can you come find me? I've been thinking about something and would really appreciate your help. It should only take five minutes. When is the best time?"
Notice a few things in the above sentences:
a) there are no alarm bells ringing b) there is no pressure on him c) you're giving value to his opinion or help d) "it will only take a minute" or very little time.
Now, once you have his attention you raise ONE issue with him. Only ONE. Men work in serial and not in parallel. Think of your H as a baseball player. He is holding the bat and waiting for your pitch. IF you keep throwing TEN balls at him all at once he's not going to know which one to hit and will walk off the field. So, ONE ISSUE AT A TIME.
Another thing. You raise the issue and SHUT UP. e.g. "I've been thinking and realized that we have very little time together. What do you think about that?" Then STOP! Wait for his answer.
Depending on the severity of the subject he may walk away. Let him walk. Do not pursue him. You got the message across. Give him time to think about it. As much as you would like an instant solution, he may not have one. If he doesn't give you an answer in a couple of days, gently remind him. "Hey, have you given any thought to that thing I mentioned the other day?" -- Note: Avoid the use of the words, 'talked', 'discussed', 'problem' those words put pressure on him.
Now, once you have his attention you raise ONE issue with him. Only ONE. Men work in serial and not in parallel. Think of your H as a baseball player. He is holding the bat and waiting for your pitch. IF you keep throwing TEN balls at him all at once he's not going to know which one to hit and will walk off the field. So, ONE ISSUE AT A TIME.
Another thing. You raise the issue and SHUT UP. e.g. "I've been thinking and realized that we have very little time together. What do you think about that?" Then STOP! Wait for his answer.
Depending on the severity of the subject he may walk away. Let him walk. Do not pursue him. You got the message across. Give him time to think about it. As much as you would like an instant solution, he may not have one. If he doesn't give you an answer in a couple of days, gently remind him. "Hey, have you given any thought to that thing I mentioned the other day?" -- Note: Avoid the use of the words, 'talked', 'discussed', 'problem' those words put pressure on him.
I really hope this helps someone out there.
Someone send me a NOOSE!
So, you're telling me it's not okay to raise issue #1 - #5, while sobbing mind you, and after a party in a parking lot, and then... when he walks, follow him around like a lunatic, all the while constantly dialing! (This actually happened. You have NO idea what it's like to not be HEARD, for over a YEAR, for cryin' out loud!!! However, since I read your post, it all starts to make sense!!!)
What else ya got?
Last edited by mindfull; 11/29/0904:03 AM.
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13
After many years w/my head in the sand... I FILED Divorced 6/2011
The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.
If there are four words that are guaranteed to strike terror into any man, even the most hardened. Those words are "We need to talk" In my opinion they should be stricken from every woman's vocabulary on the planet. When a man hears those words this is what he understands: [list][*]You're in BIG TROUBLE mister and you're going to get it, now!
I am starting to see the importance of timing and wording and your post helps.
Thanks for posting your sitch. It is always good to get a glimpse of where someone has been and where they are now. It helps me to gauge where people are coming from. Boy, oh boy, have you made some changes in how you look at things!!!
I especially appreciate the fact that you have acknowledged your shortcomings. We all have them, yes, but we don't always admit them, muchless use them to help others gain insight into their own situations.
Your feedback has been very important to me, and to many others from all that I can gather. Thanks for sharing.
Here's to hoping your wisdom works in your own personal sitch.
bim
BIM M 39 / H 40 / S 9 / S 6 / T 20 / M 11
my sitch: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1828127#Post1828127
I'll post more as I muddle along. Check out