Longtime coming...

[Awoken]

The Psychiatrists DSM IV no longer even recognizes alcoholic or alcoholism anymore. Dependence? Sure. Abuse? Yep. But Alcoholism a stand-alone life-long disease/diagnosis? Nope. Doesn't exist.

Sorry for rambling. I've explained my success through Rational Recovery and counseling before, but refrained from "going off" on AA/Al-Anon. God Bless the 5% that have been helped by AA. God Bless, also, the statistically proven 74% who quit successfully for life on their own! The most successful approach of them all.

Approach it with a healthy skepticism, this AA and Al-Anon and see how many people or their loved ones have been working the program for years and keep "relapsing" but that's okay because "it's expected; it's part of their disease."This is success? This is healthy? I think not.

Sorry, getting off soapbox, now.

Thanks so much Gardner,

After your earlier post recommending "Rational Recovery", I ordered a copy at my bookstore; it's still not here yet.
Monday, I read through a copy at another bookstore, and found it useful, especially the part about "enablers/suckers".

I don't drink much at all, almost never, and I now see that I've been ignoring her drinking problem and I don't understand it very well. I also need to understand better what's going on with W, so I don't PANIC, like I did earlier this week. I'm sure she uses the alcohol to self medicate her BPD; it's a long term pattern. How do you think that fits with AVRT/Rational Recovery?

I'm hoping to find some others with similar sitch's at the Al-anon meetings to extend my support group and work on myself being stronger. I've only been to one meeting so far. They talked about the 12 steps for literally about 2 minutes, said the serenity prayer. The rest of the time was spent with each person sharing what they had dealt with that week with their "qualifier", or person that abuses alcohol. The focus was supposed to be not on how to help the abuser, but how to work on oneself. It seemed very DB'ish. Afterwards, several people came up to talk with me and offer their phone numbers as support. They stressed going to different meetings and finding the right group of people for support.
I'll keep an open-mind, and some healthy skepticism.

thank you again for being here.

[karen43]

Gardener, my opinion is that you can be a dry drunk either with or without AA. One of my family members is not a dry drunk, but I feel my X is. By that, I mean he is very prone basically constantly prone to addictive behaviors.

He conquered his drinking/drugs addiction, but displayed addictive behavior since then. He would become addicted to billiards (had to play every day even went in the day they were closed as he became friends with the pool hall owner). Then triathlons, running, kayaking/canoeing, and then OW was also an addiction for him. I prob. can't explain it very well, but I can see how it is generally not a good thing to be in an addictive state throughout your life, and so may need to be addressed in addition to just the drinking. For example, one could displace their drinking addiction with gambling and that may be just as problematic. I think that may be common dry drunk behavior, and I would agree that kind of problem should be looked at, or I think the person would/will have continued problems at points in their life regardless of whether they use AA or some other method of recovery.

[Gardener]

Karen,

Gardener, my opinion is that you can be a dry drunk either with or without AA. One of my family members is not a dry drunk, but I feel my X is. By that, I mean he is very prone basically constantly prone to addictive behaviors.

I understand your points and I have 4 thoughts:

1) 12-Step has also co-opted the term dry drunk in that it originally was a term used to describe severely drunk people who actually needed detoxification (from the inTOXICation (it is, in its way, poison) before any kind of re-hab. A Dry Drunk was someone who still displayed all the symptoms of being intoxicated well into - and after - the detox.

2) Addictive behavior/tendency/whatever (if it's not one thing, it's another) is a) common, though often harmless (billiards) and b) should be monitored closely as it is often a precursor to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

3) Do the research. Look up the term "Dry Drunk" on as many sites as you can One "tip off" is the person is indecisive(?). Look 'em up. There are so many definitions, characteristics and "symptoms" that either we are all dry drunks or no one is.

4) It is also an insulting, derisive label and even AA and other 12-Steps admit this. It is meant as an insult.

Enjoyin' the debate...

[karen43]

2) Addictive behavior/tendency/whatever (if it's not one thing, it's another) is a) common, though often harmless (billiards) and b) should be monitored closely as it is often a precursor to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

I think some addictions are more positive than others, for example billiards would be compared to drinking or OP. But, I think the problem is that it would often take up most of X's hours, when maybe he could have spent time with family, church, or whatever. It's just kind of an unbalanced life to me. Spending 1 to 10 hours a week on a hobby is a positive thing, but when you spend 30-40 hours a week on a hobby in addition to having a full-time job I think that is what I would define as a dry-drunk or addictive personality. My X told me his job and hobbies were his 1st and 2nd priorities, than me and the kids. I should have taken that a serious red flag, but didn't.

3) Do the research. Look up the term "Dry Drunk" on as many sites as you can One "tip off" is the person is indecisive(?). Look 'em up. There are so many definitions, characteristics and "symptoms" that either we are all dry drunks or no one is.

There are many definitions of dry drunk, but what I would suggest is a good definition is one who continues addictive behavior after "recovery", but just changes the focus of what one is addicted to. My other sober alcoholic family member doesn't display addictive traits at all, lives life in moderation.

4) It is also an insulting, derisive label and even AA and other 12-Steps admit this. It is meant as an insult.

I didn't invent the term and certainly don't mean to insult with that term. I do think it's a serious problem, and one that people would be wise to get counseling/treatment for--whatever works.

[Gardener]

when you spend 30-40 hours a week on a hobby in addition to having a full-time job I think that is what I would define as a dry-drunk or addictive personality.Wow! Gotcha. That kind of excessiveness, compulsiveness is masking something. My X told me his job and hobbies were his 1st and 2nd priorities, than me and the kids. I should have taken that a serious red flag, but didn't. And I'll bet you didn't take it that seriously because you had no idea to what extremes he took those priorities to.I didn't invent the term and certainly don't mean to insult with that term. I do think it's a serious problem, and one that people would be wise to get counseling/treatment for--whatever works.
My point was that it is used as an insult within the 12-step community; certainly not that you meant to insult.