Looks like I might soon be LBS...newcomer here

[Gnosis]

I have a question~ how can you believe in God and not believe in forgiveness? I have never been a grudgeholder and I don't get it.

Hmmm... that's a good question. Most people who believe in God do so for all the benefits He provides. i.e. When things go smoothly or to have their expectations met. The moment that these conflict with what they want, pretty much like a WAS, they conveniently ignore or choose what they want to justify their actions. An example is: "Turn the other cheek" and "An eye for an eye"

Forgiveness is not easy. This forum is plastered with "unforgiveness". A lot of people use the term loosely now-a-days. The dictionary definition:

forgive
1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

It's easy to read but very hard to do. Especially when our mind refuses to forget and the offense is repeated. In your H's case I don't think its the forgiveness that is the problem, but more the forgetting and even more, the loss of trust. In his mind he cannot believe you. The only way he's going to get through this is through a crisis. And I mean a REALLY REAL crisis.

I'd like to think that I don't let people walk all over me, but I also don't let other people take away my joy.

I know you'd like to think this, however the reality from what you've told us is, it is the farthest from the truth. Out of guilt you have let your H walk all over you and allowed him to crush your joy. (please take this as a padded 2x4)

How can you not forgive and still be happy? This has always bugged me about H.

I'll answer this from my own point of view (which is skewed.) This is where the "mindwipe" comes into play. i.e I choose to ignore your existence and remove you from my life. You may be around me but I'll never trust you again, with anything. Because (for whatever the reason is) I cannot get away from you so I will tolerate your presence. I will not acknowledge your needs. At the earliest possible convenience I will remove you from my life.

I realize that the above is harsh. I don't mean to discourage you but to give you an idea or insight into his head. It MAY NOT be the way your H thinks. This behavior is not about revenge its more on self-preservation and survival. My environment and upbringing were not the same as your H's.

I wanted to add more to this, but need to run.

[Gardener]

I have a question~ how can you believe in God and not believe in forgiveness?

Many believe in God and do not adhere to his laws and commandments. Could that be why the world has always been so F'ed up?

Hmmmm....Crosses people off, holds grudges, never forgives,
Is he Irish?

Signed,
O'Gardener

And like I always quote (i forget who):
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free
And discover the prisoner was you."

Your H is in a self-imposed prison. Pity.

[brownidmom]

I have a question~ how can you believe in God and not believe in forgiveness?

Many believe in God and do not adhere to his laws and commandments. Could that be why the world has always been so F'ed up?

Yep, I do believe it just might be.

Hmmmm....Crosses people off, holds grudges, never forgives,
Is he Irish?

Signed,
O'Gardener

No, don't think so. Just a man with a childhood history of abandonment. Phew! The baggage that we carry around all our lives is heavy!

[brownidmom]

Gnosis,

I have a question~ how can you believe in God and not believe in forgiveness? I have never been a grudgeholder and I don't get it.

Hmmm... that's a good question. Most people who believe in God do so for all the benefits He provides. i.e. When things go smoothly or to have their expectations met. The moment that these conflict with what they want, pretty much like a WAS, they conveniently ignore or choose what they want to justify their actions. An example is: "Turn the other cheek" and "An eye for an eye"

Sad, but true.

Forgiveness is not easy. This forum is plastered with "unforgiveness". A lot of people use the term loosely now-a-days. The dictionary definition:

forgive
1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

It's easy to read but very hard to do. Especially when our mind refuses to forget and the offense is repeated. In your H's case I don't think its the forgiveness that is the problem, but more the forgetting and even more, the loss of trust. In his mind he cannot believe you. The only way he's going to get through this is through a crisis. And I mean a REALLY REAL crisis.

I have often wondered what it might take for him to forgive me and realize that I am not the same person who lied to him.

I'd like to think that I don't let people walk all over me, but I also don't let other people take away my joy.

I know you'd like to think this, however the reality from what you've told us is, it is the farthest from the truth. Out of guilt you have let your H walk all over you and allowed him to crush your joy. (please take this as a padded 2x4)

I guess I asked for this one. I have always allowed him more liberties in my life than anyone I have ever known. In the rest of my life, I am the leader, I am the strong one, the go-to girl. I allowed him to lead me because when I met him, I needed to be led. I was in a dangerous place in my life and he threw me a rope. I took hold of it and held on for dear life.

How can you not forgive and still be happy? This has always bugged me about H.

I'll answer this from my own point of view (which is skewed.) This is where the "mindwipe" comes into play. i.e I choose to ignore your existence and remove you from my life. You may be around me but I'll never trust you again, with anything. Because (for whatever the reason is) I cannot get away from you so I will tolerate your presence. I will not acknowledge your needs. At the earliest possible convenience I will remove you from my life.

I have never heard of the mindwipe before, but that is definitely where I have been for some time now.

I realize that the above is harsh. I don't mean to discourage you but to give you an idea or insight into his head. It MAY NOT be the way your H thinks. This behavior is not about revenge its more on self-preservation and survival. My environment and upbringing were not the same as your H's.

Ya know, when he asked me why I lied, I admitted it was for self preservation. When I realized how good he would be for me, I knew that if I told him the truth, he wouldn't have been with me. And once I loved him, I lied because I didn't want to hurt him, didn't want to lose him, ie. self preservation. He mocks that term with disdain, though he is doing the same thing to me now.

Thanks for your honest response, Gnosis. I do not take lightly the fact that I am responsible for creating distrust in my R, my M. It just hurts so much that I have done everything I can to make up for it, to show that I am a different person, that I am sorry, and it still isn't enough.

bim

[Gnosis]

BIM, I was SO hoping you would not be offended and would reply. My heart truly goes out to you.

While I can more or less relate to how he is, you do not deserve the treatment you have received. I'll try to make some time to read your entire thread and take note on everything you've tried so far. You've been living through this for seven years and you've tried almost everything I could think of off the top of my head.

I'll try come up with some new suggestions for you. Fair warning: I tend to agree with Gucci, Puppy Dog Tails and RobX's philosophies, so they may not exactly be DB principles.

I told you before that this man needs a crisis to shake his head out of the sand and appreciate the woman he has. I do have one idea off the top of my head, but it's very dirty, so I'll hold off on that.

Keep strong.

[Gnosis]

Oh, yeah, "mindwipe" is something I came up with for myself. It's not in any books that I can remember. Its based more on "me" and the way I am. While introspectively "examining" my life I made it up to kind of relate to my own behavior.

[brownidmom]

Gnosis,

BIM, I was SO hoping you would not be offended and would reply. My heart truly goes out to you.

It is hard to hear, but I am glad to have found someone who can relate to him and thus, help me.

While I can more or less relate to how he is, you do not deserve the treatment you have received. I'll try to make some time to read your entire thread and take note on everything you've tried so far. You've been living through this for seven years and you've tried almost everything I could think of off the top of my head.

Please do, if you get the time. Not sure how informative my thread is. I journaled a lot. I feel like I have been doing the same thing for 7 years, expecting that if I tell the truth long enough, he will just wake up one day and believe me. The truth, they say, always rises to the top. WHEN???

I'll try come up with some new suggestions for you. Fair warning: I tend to agree with Gucci, Puppy Dog Tails and RobX's philosophies, so they may not exactly be DB principles.

It's ok. None of them have participated on my thread, I just want peace in my life, doesn't have to be textbook.

I told you before that this man needs a crisis to shake his head out of the sand and appreciate the woman he has. I do have one idea off the top of my head, but it's very dirty, so I'll hold off on that.

I'm listening?!?!

Keep strong.

I will. Thanks again.

bim

[Super Girl]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about this "dirty" idea too. lol

[brownidmom]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about this "dirty" idea too. lol

We'll be waiting together with baited breath.

[Gnosis]

So... I just spent some hours reading your threads in detail and making notes (9 pages of them.) I want to mull over the notes later. In the meantime, here's what I see about your H:

a) Your H seems to suffer from paranoia.
b) His behavior exhibits traits of a Passive-Aggressive person.

I personally have some Passive-Aggressive in me but not to the extent of your H. I deal with it differently. I admit we're not the easiest people in the world to get along. Especially when we feel we've been wronged. Google it for more information, I think it will help you a little.

Questions for you.
1) Attorney: You've been advised to and have suggested seeking legal counsel a few times. Have you done this yet? If not, why not? If you have, what did they say?

2) Have you two ever been apart for an extended period of time during your marriage? i.e. Moving out for longer than a week.

I'll wait for your answer because I need to step away from the PC and take a break. Your thread has exposed some things in me that I've been guilty of in the past within my M that I want to mull over.