WAW and 4 kids

[tryingtilDorR]

Yes, both Mothers (My mom recently, and all my ILs) have been incredibly supportive during the past year and it has helped me a lot, but also made W frustrated because nobody is on 'her side' - not that I am keeping score or anything, but only her enabler-friends are the ones that she enjoys talking to about all this becauset they reinforce her direction (there are only a few actually).

I think the holidays are weighing on her, pushing her to make a move possibly. I think she wants to move out before they get going now that we are through the kids' and her birthdays (4 bdays in 6 weeks just ended). She doesn't want to put on a 'happy face' with me at holiday gatherings I think, or have to be around my family/relatives. Her guilt makes this type of thing hard to deal with. Again, I see her selfish motives driving her and not thinking about how to make this holiday season best for the kids.

She may hold back until January, but I feel like she will bail in the next week or so if she does at all before the 1st of the year.

If she makes it to the 1st of the year without moving out who knows what happens at that point.

[tryingtilDorR]

One thing I noticed at S12's tournament this weekend is that there are a lot of other women out there in the world, and as GIMA pointed out in his thread we think we need a woman but we really don't. I am coming around to that idea. I know I don't want W in her current state - I will only want her to *choose* me out of her own free will and not out of duty in the end.

If she can't do that and also observe boundaries then I wouldn't want her back anyway. Previously I would have taken her (and have for hte most part over the past year) under just about any circumstances even though I have always insisted that she cuts off contact with OM (which she hasn't). Before the bomb, both of us were settling for something less than we deserved but we both needed to put in the work to address it obviously.

Over time, as I get stronger and more detatched, the bar gets higher. I think about the hurt and emotional devastation she has brought to the table and I realize I am not willing to have her back under the same circumstances I would have settled for before. I also know that I won't ever allow a woman to do this to me again. I have been transformed in some fundamental ways when it comes to my attitude about women and relationships.

At the end of the day, if W really does leave and we end up D, the one thing I can thank her for is helping me to realize that I am worth *way* more than I have been receiving from her lately, and I won't settle for less in the future and I will also *earn* that level of love and devotion from whomever I am with given all of the valuable things I have learned from going through this hell. Sorry to sound arrogant, but if she isn't that person then it is her great loss.

I had to laugh, but I was at BILs/SILs house the other day and they relayed a comment from my W's cousin, whom has been through a D were OPs were involved. She said that I need to DATE in order to snap W out of her funk (these are her relatives telling me this, mind you). She said that whatever I have been doing (waiting for her to snap out of it) isn't working so I need to try something else (I bet she read DB or somthing).

After reading Gucci and Robx here on these forums I responded that yes,I know that could be effective!

[tryingtilDorR]

W is really getting to me today. It is just the utter lack of respect and common decency, in front of my kids, that gets me angry. Maybe I brought some of this on by trying to talk to her, but I am just fuming.

Exchange yesterday morning:

TDR: "I just looked at the paper and saw that the local H.S. won their game friday against XXX team, their arch rival"
W: "Yes I heard it was an exciting game"
TDR: "Who did you talk to that went to the game?" <we know several people that were probably there>
W (in front of S11 and S12): "Does it MATTER who told me ?" <she said it in an irritating and condescending tone of voice>

I was mad and offended by her reaction, but let it go and didn't say anything.

Today we had this exchange:

She gets up about an hour earlier than normal and gets dressed to go work out - lately she had been working out at home for the past few months every morning.

TDR: "Are you going to XXXX this moring to work out?" <XXX the place she used to go when she was getting up at this time before>
W: "No I am going to YYYY"

2 hours later she gets home, and I ask:

TDR: "What kind of stuff did you do at YYY" meaning, what kind of workout? Weights? Cardio? etc?
W: "It is none of your business what I do at my workout" <history here is that her R with OM started out centered around discussing workouts, at which time she declared she would never talk to me about that stuff due to some past arguments, etc.>

After this a mini-argument commences as I tell her her attitude stinks and that she should be able to hold a normal, polite conversation in our house in front of our kids. I let the thing the day before just go, but I couldn't just swallow this now 2 days in a row.

This just really frys me. I step back and think about how people should treat each other and I am floored at how she acts.

Given that she has been making moves to move out I think OM is a heavy influence these days although I have stopped trying to verify this after she cut me off from the phone records. It is kind of a cheeseless tunnel.

I am considering contacting the OM's GF, whom he lives with and has a child with, to tell her what has been going on over the past year. I have refrained from this since I was worried about what W would do and how she would react, and because W claims that they aren't really 'together, but now I don't care because I really have nothing to lose and I feel like his GF should know what is going on. After all, he lives under her roof (doesn't work) and they have a child together (5 year old I think). My only 'proof' is that there was a strong EA, but the phone records, recordings, etc are pretty shocking and undeniable. I think she would want to know given that she probably is supporting this freeloader.

She has a right to know, and this POS predator is going to do it to someone else eventually.

Maybe I am just P.O'd and need to calm down, but my IC told me that if I am doing it (contacting GF) to feel better and not looking for a specific outcome it is probably the right thing to do.

[TrentC]

W is really getting to me today. It is just the utter lack of respect and common decency, in front of my kids, that gets me angry. Maybe I brought some of this on by trying to talk to her, but I am just fuming.

Exchange yesterday morning:

TDR: "I just looked at the paper and saw that the local H.S. won their game friday against XXX team, their arch rival"
W: "Yes I heard it was an exciting game"
TDR: "Who did you talk to that went to the game?" <we know several people that were probably there>
W (in front of S11 and S12): "Does it MATTER who told me ?" <she said it in an irritating and condescending tone of voice>

I was mad and offended by her reaction, but let it go and didn't say anything.

Why do you care who she talked to? That's my thinking, and proably hers as well.

Today we had this exchange:

She gets up about an hour earlier than normal and gets dressed to go work out - lately she had been working out at home for the past few months every morning.

TDR: "Are you going to XXXX this moring to work out?" <XXX the place she used to go when she was getting up at this time before>
W: "No I am going to YYYY"

2 hours later she gets home, and I ask:

TDR: "What kind of stuff did you do at YYY" meaning, what kind of workout? Weights? Cardio? etc?
W: "It is none of your business what I do at my workout" <history here is that her R with OM started out centered around discussing workouts, at which time she declared she would never talk to me about that stuff due to some past arguments, etc.>

I'm kinda in the same boat as her. You might think you're just making small talk, but it comes across as controlling. Especially since you acknowledge that she said she doesn't want to talk to you about it due to the history.

After this a mini-argument commences as I tell her her attitude stinks and that she should be able to hold a normal, polite conversation in our house in front of our kids. I let the thing the day before just go, but I couldn't just swallow this now 2 days in a row.

This just really frys me. I step back and think about how people should treat each other and I am floored at how she acts.

She is an alien right now. She is probably in a fog, especially if there is an OM involved. Her actions aren't going to make sense, but you cannot reason with the alien.

You can't "make" her be civil to you. You can't "make" her talk about things with you. And talking to her like she's a litle kid is certainly not going to help things.

I am considering contacting the OM's GF, whom he lives with and has a child with, to tell her what has been going on over the past year.

If you have concrete proof of an affair, do so. She deserves to know the truth of her relationship as much as you do.

I have refrained from this since I was worried about what W would do and how she would react, and because W claims that they aren't really 'together,

A) Who cares what she thinks? She is cheating on you and you are apparently letting her. She can't have much less respect for you then she does now.

B) Oh, well, if she claims that there's nothing going on, then you have nothing to worry about. I mean, it's not like cheaters lie about their relationships or anything...

I feel like his GF should know what is going on. After all, he lives under her roof (doesn't work) and they have a child together (5 year old I think). My only 'proof' is that there was a strong EA, but the phone records, recordings, etc are pretty shocking and undeniable. I think she would want to know given that she probably is supporting this freeloader.

She has a right to know, and this POS predator is going to do it to someone else eventually.

I would agree. If what you say about this guy is true, it's probably got a good chance of busting up whatever R is going on with your wife, too, as he would try to replace his GF with your wife for meeting his needs...

[tryingtilDorR]

Thanks for the feedback TrentC. I need to let her behavior and reactions to me roll off my back so to speak and not react, but I really get steamed when she does this in front of my children. Oh well - I have been enduring a year of hell so I should just keep sucking it up and try to not react.


Other developments - My mother has been trying to get a hold of W to talk to her for a couple of weeks now ever since she got the full scoop on what has been going on. We hadn't really told my family - they just knew we were having some problems but not all the gory details (she sleeps in another room, OM, etc). Since she found out she has been trying to reach out to my W to try to help her because she thinks W has been having problems for a few years and she wants her to see her psychiatrist. W has been avoiding her (not returning calls, etc.).

W had been going to an IC (MF Counselor) for a while but stopped a couple of months ago. My mother's motivation isn't neccessarily to save the M (although she would like that to happen) but instead for W to get help for herself. She and my W have had a very close relationship over the years.

Anyway, she finally tracked W down today and they talked, and W agreed to make an appt with the psychiatrist. Interesting development - we all thought my mother was the last person that might be able to get to her before she did something else, like leave. We'll see where this goes.

I am still deciding on what to do - I think I will tell OM's GF, however. I called their house today around 10 AM and OM answered. Figures - she is probably out working to support his a**, and I don't have a cell phone # for her.

[tryingtilDorR]

Mental Exhaustion - I am feeling it. My whole body is tired.

I am feeling more frustrated and angry these past few days and you can see it in my posts above I think. I have been thinking a lot about how I have been living with someone who doesn't want to be with me anymore and has been telling me this for a year now. She wants out so much that she has moved to another bedroom. We have had sex once in the past year and she shudders when I try to touch her (I stopped doing that many many months ago). She had/has a R with an OM that she had admitted at one time that she had 'feelings' for and also realized that she needed to 'find somebody' to be happy with before she is too old, because she couldn't be happy with me.

The only thing keeping her around is the kids, her guilt over ending her M and breaking up the family, and our comfortable life. This is not news, but now looking back at how long she has been in this state it is sobering on a new level. IT's been a year and that should be telling me something (I have always thought, give it another month or two and it will change, blah blah blah).

We have 4 kids which is why we endure, and I was blindsided after being with this woman for over 25 years and looking at the situation as optimistically as possible (I couldn't envision us not being together), but now the reality is really settling in.

She isn't "waking up". For the first time I almost feel like if she left (and paid for it herself) it would almost be a relief. Maybe I am kidding myself, but maybe not.

The thing I look forward to now are no longer my unrealistic dreams of a happy M with my W down the road. It seems so far-fetched now since my 'conditions' around R can't ever be met - I can't ever see her wanting to do these things: NO contact with OM, NO inappropriate friendships with other men, total transparency about phone and who she spends tiem with and where.

Instead I look forward to days where the day-to-day strain of this M/R is lifted due to the W's removal from my life or at least from my emotions. I may be fooling myself since S/D will bring new anguish and complications most likely. However, seeing the W every day in our home and dealing with her is becoming stressful in a new way for me. I think this is due to new feelings of anger over the situation, which seems to have replaced hope/sorrow/determination.

If I cut down on negative self-talk and mind-reading it helps to keep my sanity, but the strain and cold reality of it all is wearing on me now and I feel it.

With the holidays coming up, and birthdays and an anniversary just behind me it adds even more to the pile I think, but I know it is also hard for her. She wants out and would be gone if she could afford it I think. She is browsing for more work online and also looking at rentals.

At least she is taking responsbility for her action to leave and realizing she needs to work more, etc. (I think anyway - I could get served with papers stating otherwise any day since she did visit a L about 2 weeks back).

[tryingtilDorR]

Just when I am ready to wallow in my own anger, I read this on another thread from Coach:

Stop being a victim, very unattractive. A victim has things done to them out of their control. A leader sees the situation, makes a plan, and moves forward. Choose your own path, considering the brutal reality of where you are. You have choices in how you handle things. The anger stems from feeling out of control. Reread your post, you give her control over you.

I am playing the victim - waiting for her to decide when to move out, file, etc. which may or may not ever happen. Or am I?

I am at the recognition of brutal reality stage I think. The reality is making me angry and tired. I need a plan and a way forward now that I understand the brutal reality. My previous 'plan' was to DB but I haven't been great at it I guess since things seem to just drift slowly downward, but I do feel like I am in a much stronger position no matter what happens so I guess that means I am winning. I guess the fact that I feel like I can move on without her is a victory - it is just that the limbo takes its toll.

I have tried to move the ball and had discussions about S/D with W on different occasions, to see if there were a way for us to work together on it and it went nowhere. She stonewalled on every point. It left me thinking that if I wanted ANY movement in this situaiton I needed to file for D myself. sigh. But.... she seems so close to leaving on her own, so maybe there will be a break in the weather? I guess I am playing victim again, waiting for her to drive things.

[tryingtilDorR]

I don't LOVE my W any more.

Before now I never questioned my love for her before, but this just hit me today for whatever reason. The person she is now is not someone I want to be with. The other way to look at it is the person I am in love with no longer exists. All of us LBSs know this to be true (that WAS is not same person any more), but we assume that the person is lurking just under the surface and that WAS will 'wake up' and that person will be back. My W has been like this for too long, and I now realize that she is probably permenantly this person that I do not love, and is incapable of changing in ways that would allow us to restore the M.

Can I choose to love her? Yes, but for some reason I don't want to choose this. If she said she wanted to work on the M and try to stay together would I choose to lover her? Yes, but it would be a lot more work for me than it would have been before when I was needy/pursuing/hurt.

At some point the WAS's actions bring us to this stage I guess. It is inevitable. Some of us get there faster than others. For me, it took a while because I kept thinking that if I just hang on longer, she will wake up from this temporary insanity. "How could she not? How could someone CHOOSE to break up a family and cause all this turmoil? How could someone choose to lower the standard of living for our children by forcing us to all live apart? After all, I am not a bad guy,right?? She will wake up and understand that she is being so irrational and selfish... " Anyway, these are the conversations I had with myself for months that sustained my hope.

Now what? I am going to give it a few days and try to get through Thanksgiving without too much drama.

[Super Girl]

How could someone choose to lower the standard of living for our children by forcing us to all live apart?

I wonder the same thing every day. I hope you have a good holiday.

[tryingtilDorR]

Thanks Sad Girl - you do the same.

A turning point for me in the past few weeks was related to how I changed my view on the issue of TRUST.

I obviously don't trust my W especially given that I have caught her lying several times when I tried to enforce OM-related boundaries.

I kept thinking if I asked her what she was doing, looking at her phone records in secret, etc etc I would find reasons to trust her. I found the opposite in some cases, and confronted her about it.

However, I realized that even if I found NOTHING, I would never TRUST her unless SHE WANTED me to trust her. You can't go through life with someone you don't trust.

Snooping, asking questions, checking up on her, etc. won't allow me to trust her when she has stated that she doesn't want to stay M to me and wants to leave. It is a fruitless exercise/cheeseless tunnel.

Once I accepted this a couple of weeks ago, I realized that anything I was doing focused on her (Especially as it relates to OM) is a waste of energy. I will never trust her until she decides she wants that.

Right now she doesn't care because she doesn't want to be M to me anymore.

So, I give up. I have always been solid on the fact that I don't want THIS M anymore, but there are no signs of change so I am ready to move on.

Maybe the secret to my movement on all this is that I have gotten tot he point where I don't care what she is doing, so TRUST is irrelevant. At the same time I also came to this realization that I can't build trust in her on my own and am tired of trying - SHE has to decide she wants to be trusted and I can't force that, so I give up.