Saffie, the way I feel right now there is no chance I will choose not to want him. In fact, as Puppy has said--I am not dealing very well yet with the opposite. I am not really detaching at all--at least the last few days have been very hard. Just when I think I am doing better--I realize I am not GAL just for me but to make myself more attractive to him.
I am going to let the DB counselor work with him for awhile before pulling the "bandaid" off. It has only been 2 months since he moved out and I found out about the A. I can take a little more pain and time before I start "to heal"--I think. During our C sessions together that whole day this Friday, she (C)talked alot about going with morals and values that dont change and not our feelings. I am choosing to trust that she can get him to explore his feelings and conflicts. She did talk to him about what it would take, feel like, what would he need to have in place to stop the A--but in very general terms as she had to work from the perspective of helping the kids deal
I keep asking myself when are the endorphins going to wear off?--its been 2 years EA, 1 1/2 years of the PA? He says they dont even have sex very often and its not about that? It seems to be most about his emotional needs. Thats why I am trying to be very non demanding and not bringng up negative emotions.
I dont think my H is going to carry on foreve in Limbo land because even tho he wants to be the nice guy and not hurt anybody--he finally did make a huge step to not be the nice guy and moved out. His action with this --rather than the 2 years of inaction are what frighten me the most. He generally just lets things happen when it comes to R. I think he has a very specific time table of 6 months -not limbo forever (4 months now) when his lease is up. I have lawyer and other stuff in place to deal with that but I do feel like I have that time and should not be demanding or pushing for a decision as she isnt. OW is very very smart and in love. THis is not some trashy woman but a really together person who has had to pretty much be supermom, work a lot, do everything for her 3 adult girls growing up as her H just worked and came home/didnt participate much in kids activities like mine did, get her master's degree, has a very great positive attitude and has had 2 years of my H telling her what doesnt work for him. And boy does she have it right. She is not escalating her demands --in fact what he has said she is not demanding anything and the few text messages I was able to see--she actually is doing a form of divorce busting --only its marraige busting. He invited her for dinner (for the next day) the night before our 6 hour counselling and she texted him back that he and I would probably be very tired and hungry on the 1 1/2 hour drive home and we should stop and get something to eat together. (not the text of a woman who is fearful or demanding)She also texted him in the morning to say she hoped the C went well ( He agreed to C only to help with the kids anger). He feels no pressure from her and has said so. Being around her is so easy and light he says. She is not jealous. She doesnt talk about heavy things-they watch TV and sports and laugh at gameshows--talk about how to make work the best it can be (she is his office manager) as this is one of his passions-his work.
I really appreciate your posting and suggestions Saffie as well as Puppy's perspective. I dont feel so alone in all this. Sadly, I probably will be second guessing myself in 4 months saying I should have followed your advice more closely. I am feeling really down this weekend after the C session. I dont know if it was being with him for 10 hours--so near yet so far away or having it reinforced that he only is with me when he has to be but sees her all week and 2 or 3 nights after work.
So I demand he make a choice? He has said repeatedly he doesnt trust I have really changed, that he needs time, that he doesnt have any spark for me like he does for her, and he is already out of the house.
I could try emailing him to talk. I think he might be showing it to her if I did.
Puppy, There is no open marriage anymore. He has his wedding ring off, he lives in an apartment, he isnt intimate with me.Yes, before I thought it all through, I did pursue intimacy with him but he didnt initiate it and hasnt since. He is trying to decide (he says) between our marriage and OW but he views being separated as not being in a marriage--that is how he defines it not me. When he does decide, it will be to either give her up or divorce and probably marry her. He doesnt want to go on indefinitely AND has never suggested an open marriage.
I dont write very well and used the word "demand"--I would never demand. I have told him he still has a choice ==choice is his(after he said he had "irreparably damaged our kids and me" by his lying and A) and he could choose to come back to our family and there is forgiveness and love or he could choose the OW.
Your situation is very similar to mine, but a stage on from where mine went. I think I was very lucky that I realised what I wanted from my M and made my changes whilst my H was still at home and so he could see they were for real. That is why he came clean about the A.
Sometimes we are just plain lucky in our timing.
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He says they dont even have sex very often and its not about that? It seems to be most about his emotional needs. Thats why I am trying to be very non demanding and not bringng up negative emotions.
This is pretty much word for word what my H said. I completely believe him too. Actually, the physical side between them was pretty bad- partly I think from his guilt. OW was the one that pressed for things to be physical.
Because it was attention and friendship that my H was looking for I thought it very important that he knew how much I did want to be with him. When I talk about 'fighting' for him, I am not literally talking about arguing/ fighting, (although some of that did happen), but I am talking about making sure he knew how much I loved him and how I WANTED to be with him. I know if I had not let him know how much I wanted the M he would have just walked. He sort of had a time scale in mind and OW definitely had as she had already left her H and children. I get the feeling you have let your H know how you feel though.
Apart from having abandoned her own young children, I think my H's OW could have been seen to be like your H's; she was the one with the drive and the ambition in her family.
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He generally just lets things happen when it comes to R.
So did my H - which was why OW was making it easy for him. She was sorting it all out and he was following along - but at the last minute, when he saw what was hapening with me, he couldn't do it. Don't give up hope.
Interestingly, when I find out about OW, my H's staff, who had known about the A from the start and had all kept quiet about it until I knew,suddenly became very opinionated about the A and OW. They had felt very threatened by her and the R that was happening. They were very relieved when OW left and the A finished.
If your H is showing you OW's texts I would assume that he would show her communications from you. I expect that in the relief of everything coming out your H is showing everyone everything.
Remember, OW is not better than you. I had been demonised by my H to OW in gentle terms over the period of the A . He had voiced his dissatisfactions and then she had picked them up and run with them. In order to be able to have an A, my H had had to justify it to himself and make me into MORE of a bad guy. It hurt. We had both done things in our M that weren't good. It was amazing how quickly he remembered how much love we had though once he made the decision that us staying together was the right thing. He has never looked back and now he is very ashamed about what happened. I am telling you this to let you know there is hope and things CAN change.
However you approach the situation, be true to yourself and hold your head up high. Take the high road. Be accountable to your conscience in your actions.
You actually sound very together, even if you don't feel it. Having a DB C can only help. The fact that he say's he is wavering is a good sign. You know your H and we don't. I knew my H and approached things the way I felt was right. Somethings I did were down right stupid and I didn't think before I did them.
It sounds to me like your H is wanting to go wherever he will be appreciated the most. OW may have the advantage that she is with him more etc, but she is disadvantaged in that she doesn't have the history of years with your H and she is not the mother of your children. You need your H to remember why he M'd you in the first place.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Thank you Saffie for words of encouragement when I am at a particularly low point. My H isnt showing me other woman's text--I broke down an looked at his phone when he was in another room--I am not proud of that. He did tell me she texted him good luck iwth the C about the kids--she is very confident of him. Tonight we go for dinner with our 22 year old son to celebrate his b-day which got left behind in hospitalization and then funeral of H's dad. My son refused to meet his father to watch the big local football game together but did agree to dinner.
Puppy-re how long has his choice been available--you will have to bear with me as I explain this. About a month ago (the separation is 2 months along now)when I told him I knew about the A I told him that I could forgive and forget and he did have a choice to stay in the marriage (I never said he could have both of us) --he cried and couldnt believe I did not go ballistic on him/ could understand how the A could happen. He said at the time it gave him some hope that we might be able to work things out. That was the weekend he stayed and we were intimate. Then little contact.Then his father spent 12 days in ICU, died, funeral etc and he wanted me with him the whole time. Now, things have settled down, contact has decreased but right before C he had a mini breakdown and cried again about irreparably damaging his R with kids and I. Thats when I spelled out he had a choice to come back to our family and heal and that I and the kids wanted that. He has known all along that I would take him back and want our marriage to work. The kids have told him they want our family back.
Is there a deadline yet? The answer there is no. I have my deadline personally when his lease runs out in March as he will have to make some kind of decision then. As that date approaches I will tell him he has to make a decision if he already hasnt by then. But, I hope time will allow some effect of the DB phone counselling to take effect, maybe the A will start to wear thin, or he will miss being a full part of his adult kids lives. I do feel I know him well enough to know that a deadline this early in the process would feel controlling to him. HE keeps repeating over and over how his OW is easy to be with, always happy, nothing heavy, no demands, no jealousy, all support and encouragement and NO TIMELINES.
Counseling appointment sounds like it went well. The truth is going to hurt. I think with the DB counselor and Saffie's very experienced input, you are getting good advice.
The up and coming holiday periods are going to be very hard on you all while this hangs over you. Often it can crack things wide open. If OW has been truthful with her family then it will be hard on her too, as I don't expect they are liking this much either if they know the full story.
However, it sounds like it is going to be truly awful for your H - he is going to be torn in all directions. From how you describe him, he may well lean on your support hard at those periods. Be prepared.
As an aside, the way your H is acting makes me think that there is something out there still hidden, and my guess it is to do with OW and her family.
OW may be able to be cool, calm, and collected now....she isn't dealing with all the 'needy' stuff at the moment. I bet all she sees is the 'fun' side of your H. There is a lot more of this saga to unfold and I don't think she will be able to remain in such an unflappable position.
When I, and then my D, spoke to OW in my sitch, it was clear that her understanding of how the land lay at my home was way different to how it was, and it shocked her.By telling you that I am not encouraging you to get in contact with her, I just want you to think about the fact that she may be acting, cool calm and collected at the moment because she might not know the whole truth. She may not know your H is possibly wavering in his intentions. My H's OW never suspected my H would choose me over her. She was shocked and stunned when it started to happen.....and then a very different side of her began to appear!!!
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Thank you Saffie and Lotus for continued support. Yes the holidays are going to be very very hard. And no, the OW's family is going to have a fine holiday as they know nothing. She is waiting for my H to decide. Right now leading her double life and having to be home every night and at least parts of the weekend limits her alone time access to my H to 2-3 hours at at time plus the all day at work (where no one knows or pretends to notknow".
I think she has a pretty clear and honest picture of the "lay of the land" in our home. Although I have now stopped blaming myself completely for how empty and routine our M was, I definitely was depressing, negative, up until my 180 in January 09 when he came to me so unhappy. Even then, though I started to do things he liked, plan things, cook more --we still had trouble with communication and just enjoying each others company. Unlike your situation, we did not have a bright, happy home after work with lots of kids around to make us laugh and busy. I think some (a little) of our problems were also dealing with being emptynesters and his coming home to an empty house as I was working a lot at night and of course her and his hours matched up perfectly.
Last night we had a very pleasant birthday dinner with our 22 year old son-laughing and telling stories at the restaurant. Son came back to my house at 9 pm to watch a movie and we invited my H but he wanted to go back to his apartment to get to bed early for work. Both of us were disappointed he didnt come back but I am trying not to read too much into it. I took extra care and time dressing nice and a little sexy, little extra eye makeup. One of the things that really scares me and hurts is my H just doesnt seem to look at me much anymore. I have lost 40 pds in the last year and look very slim but when I walked back to our table he didnt even look up. For the first time yesterday in a long time, he helped me with my coat but he still forgets to open doors or pull out chairs like he used to do all the time.
Here is a question for the DB posters. At my C appointment and telephone coaching, the C says do what works--ie gets a positive response from my H. Should I be texting him? For example should I text him: "Son said he really enjoyed birthday dinner last night with us said he enjoyed being together as a family. I had a good time too" OR should I not contact? The thing that makes it even harder is that C told both of us at our intensive that H does not (and has not for many years in our M) give me true feedback--just says what he thinks I want to hear, not what he feels so how do I even know what is working or annoying to him? Everyone keeps saying "you know your H best" but I feel like I dont know him at all. I wonder if one text message from me every few days would serve as a reminder of his family among the 8-10 they send each other ?
Here is a question for the DB posters. At my C appointment and telephone coaching, the C says do what works--ie gets a positive response from my H. Should I be texting him? For example should I text him: "Son said he really enjoyed birthday dinner last night with us said he enjoyed being together as a family. I had a good time too" OR should I not contact? The thing that makes it even harder is that C told both of us at our intensive that H does not (and has not for many years in our M) give me true feedback--just says what he thinks I want to hear, not what he feels so how do I even know what is working or annoying to him? Everyone keeps saying "you know your H best" but I feel like I dont know him at all. I wonder if one text message from me every few days would serve as a reminder of his family among the 8-10 they send each other ?
BNA,
I've read, and re-read, the above three times, and I can't see anything in there that is evidence that such text messaging has "worked" before?
In the absence of any evidence, I would advise NO to the texting, as it's:
a) "Pursuit"; and
b) Enables H to "normalize" things (as in "See? Son and wife are all 'ok' with this. I knew they would be.")
btw, I also think another common mistake that DBers make is now they define what "works." They define it as "what minimizes tension," or "what elicits a 'nice' response from my WAS," etc.
What "works" should be "What seems to draw me closer to my stated goals," and/or "what seems to cause WAS to not continue some undesireable (for me) behavior," such as taking steps toward divorce, or continuing an affair, etc.
