Yes Saffie I have heard of Retrovaille and tried to get my H to go when he first told me in January he was unhappy as I was starting to change my behaviors. Even sent in deposit again couple of weeks before he moved out in September. But he wasnt interested. Puppy, you are helpful as usual with clarifying how I keep turning it to what I want from him. Re: what is the thing God himself would have me do?--I honestly believe God would want me to save my marriage, stay through better or worse, and forgive as He forgives. How that translates into my behavior is what I am struggling with. I dont feel I am doing anything God would not want me to do at this point--I am not lying or pretending. However, what did occur to me is: am I being immoral if I were to be intimate with him again--he is my H, I am still married but I definitely dont want to give even tacit agreement by default to adultery/open marriage. SOme of the posts on the board talk about intimacy as a good thing. Now I am so confused about that to. Your are right about the fear. I am afraid of losing him and I am working hard on the fear but it intrudes at times.
ALso, I do know what I want, I want him to give me as much of a shot at a R with him as he is giving the Ow. In counselling, I want to start to heal, to have some help with proper detachment and to have more advice like you all have been giving me about how to set boundaries, work on myself etc. Still, having a conversation with him in terms of thinking through where we are or where we are going is like trying to talk to a 15 year old boy right now--he is so into what "feels" happy. My H isnt a man who gets angry or antagonized --I can barely count the times in our 30 year marriage. He just denies his feelings--he wants things light and superficial in many ways. He doesnt think things through on any deep level--he is a bright, rational, practical man but not in touch with his feelings and not a writer or very verbal or able to project out consequences very far. Hence, I dont think he really thought about the impact on our kids if the OW had showed up at the funeral (and was truly shocked when I explained how it would hurt them and me) and I dont think he can see that "having no plan" doesnt bring you closer to deciding. I do think I need to stop with trying to figure this process out and where it is going and take care of myself.
Do you think these are steps towards detaching? I no longer am afraid of being alone, coming home to an empty house. I can imagine myself divorced and happy now, even imagine myself as a older lady with lots of gfs. When he leaves the house or I dont hear from him., I am not getting blue.
Do I think WHAT are steps toward detaching? I'm not seeing any. I see you continuing to want to be intimate with someone who is cheating on you, continuing to want to pursue him (in MC, and elsewhere). Maybe I missed it; please point out to me what the "these" are in your post.
NOTE: the "What would God Himself have you do" is meant to be a daily, situational concept. I agree that, broadly, God hates marriage and most likely wants us to fight for our marriages. I'm referring to, "IN THIS SITUATION, what would God have me do?"
Broadly, Jesus forgave the adulteress. SITUATIONALLY, He told her to "go and sin no more," while he simultaneously treated her with love and compassion.
Broadly, Jesus was a pacifist. SITUATIONALLY, He turned over the moneychangers' tables in a fit of righteous indignation when He saw them as an abomination in His Father's temple.
Finally,
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ALso, I do know what I want, I want him to give me as much of a shot at a R with him as he is giving the Ow. In counselling, I want to start to heal, to have some help with proper detachment and to have more advice like you all have been giving me about how to set boundaries, work on myself etc. Still, having a conversation with him in terms of thinking through where we are or where we are going is like trying to talk to a 15 year old boy right now--he is so into what "feels" happy.
I would say that he's going to pretty much BE a lovestruck 15 year old boy right now, so long as he is having an affair. I think your goals for counseling are going to be unrealistic as long as your husband's brain is all awash in "loooove" endorphines. Even Retrouvaille won't accept a couple's registration application if one of them is still in an active affair.
Okay--I guess I am not getting this at all. So should I not even be going to MC? Should I be completely dark until and if he gives up affair? What would Jesus do situationally every day--I have told him the adultery is wrong. Every day I wish I didnt kno about the A--would telling the OW'S H be what Jesus wants? He didnt proclaim it from the housetops but just told her to go and sin no more. I have encouraged him to stop lying and make up his mind. I cant control his behavior only my own. I dont call or text him anymore. Maybe it is a sign of weakness or sin that I still desire him, love him, he still is attractive to me despite his A--I dont act on it but I cant completely stop the feelings. Didnt you feel that way towards your wife even if you didnt say or act on it? I see him as a sinful human being just like the rest of us--his A isnt worse than my anger or pride or selfishness. What are realistic goals for me? Can I get to true detachment is 8 weeks? Isnt beginning to lose the fear of being alone, divorced a step along with stopping calls and texts? What would be a better step? Is going to C tommorrow a huge mistake? Puppy, you said you would practic what to say--I dont even know what to practice anymore. Tonight he came over and we watched som Denzel Washington movie about the medal of honor investigation--all about honor, lies, shame etc. H
OOps posted too early again. H ended up balling his eyes out saying he had done irreparable damage to his children and me. I didnt know what to say. (and no I didnt invite him over or pursue him or call or text but I didnt tell him to leave either--should I have?) I basically feel like I am not able to get anything straight at this point. Part of me just doesnt care anymore as this is too exhausting and another part doesnt want to give up but feels like I keep guessing and making the wrong choices.
I need to take this out of the religious framework and talk about it in 21st century terms.
What should you do? Yes, go to counseling. Be 1/2 the relationship. He wants to go to counseling so he can get her to convince you to tell the kids that they have to accept his affair. That's not what you want to go to counseling for. What do you want to go to counseling for? To ask for an equal chance in his heart and mind? That's good. Say that. Stay off his topic. Stay on yours.
Will this save your marriage? Who knows. Will it make you a person who confronts difficult situations and tries to solve them? Yes. Is that a worthwhile thing? Yes.
The chances of saving a marriage doing anything, one way or another when you are confronting an affair of the heart are small. So stand up for who you are and what you want. If this guy can't see the value of a woman who will do this, the next one will. The important thing is that you will respect yourself.
Cross-posted with you. Don't know what it means that he came over in tears. Could be so many things. Could be that in light of his father's death he better understands the importance of his family. Could mean that he had a fight with OW and is feeling alone. Could mean that he has decided to go for a divorce and feels guilty and wants you to say it is alright.
What I said above is still true. Stick to what is important to you. Earn your own self-respect. Don't do things because you think they might change him. There are no magic words, no tried and true answer to change another person's heart.
Don't stop the C but go in there with your own list of things you want to discuss as well. Don't just let your H control the sessions; you have needs/ wants too.
You have to do what feels right to you. You can take all the advice you are given and then sift through it and see which its you think work for you.
One question I have though. Don't you think OW's H has a right to know what's going on? I was the last one to know out of the four adults involved and I couldn't believe someone hadn't told me sooner. It was my knowing that managed to break the whole thing apart. Don't beleive what your H may tell you about OW's M - OW probably doesn't tell your H the truth about her M.
I think that at times the actions you may take in order to try and save your M may 'rock the boat' and make your H cross, ( like possibly contacting OW's H). You can't base your actions continually on what your H thinks and behave in a way so as not to antagonise him. At the same time though, keeping things generally on good terms with him can only help.
From your recent posts it sounds to me like your H is battling between what he 'wants' to do, (OW), and what he thinks he should do/ what an honourable man would do.
If it were me, I would just try to make it so that he can see that staying with you would not just be a chore and something he would do to remain honourable, but in fact something that he wants to do. That will take a while as he is in the throws of his 'love endorphins' making him see OW through rose tinted glasses and the newness of the R is exciting etc. However, things like him coming over and watching the film with you and showing you emotion are good.....as long as he is being genuine and not just looking for the sympathy.
Be true to yourself and keep your dignity. Be someone you admire. Your H sounds as though he is all over the place at the moment emotionally, so be strong.
You actually sound pretty together which is great. One of the biggest turning points is when you realise you don't actually 'need' your S, and that life will continue, and that you could be happy without them. You may prefer to have them with you and sharing you life as your S, but you will be ok without them. from that comes the strength to continue and they often sense that change and gradually come back.
I liken it I suppose to the confident kid at school. You know the one I mean, the one that just didn't seem to need anyone else: they were the one that others were attracted too. It was the needy ones, who lacked in self confidence, who were the ones who were shunned and lonely, and however much they tried to 'fit in' they just weren't attactive - one could sense their desperation.
Don't let him sense/smell the fear but still let him know you are there for him and you love him. I know it is a very fine line to tread.
(((((((HUGS))))))))
You are doing better than you think.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
OOps posted too early again. H ended up balling his eyes out saying he had done irreparable damage to his children and me. I didnt know what to say.
I would say something like "I agree; this has been incredibly difficult on all of us."
Do you sense that he is genuinely REMORSEFUL -- for YOU and for YOUR FAMILY, or do you sense that he is just sorry that this is now so hard on HIM?
There are stages of remorse, and I do think your husband is in one of the early stages, but there are several stages.
They'll go from "I'm sorry I got caught," to "I'm sorry for ME that I've messed myself up so much," to "I'm sorry for YOU that I hurt you (but I still don't see anything wrong with what I did)," to finally a more self-aware "I'm sorry for what I did because IT WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO, on so many levels. For me, for the pain I caused my wife, for the breaking of my vows, etc."
Okay--I guess I am not getting this at all. So should I not even be going to MC? Should I be completely dark until and if he gives up affair? What would Jesus do situationally every day--I have told him the adultery is wrong. Every day I wish I didnt kno about the A--would telling the OW'S H be what Jesus wants? He didnt proclaim it from the housetops but just told her to go and sin no more. I have encouraged him to stop lying and make up his mind. I cant control his behavior only my own. I dont call or text him anymore. Maybe it is a sign of weakness or sin that I still desire him, love him, he still is attractive to me despite his A--I dont act on it but I cant completely stop the feelings. Didnt you feel that way towards your wife even if you didnt say or act on it? I see him as a sinful human being just like the rest of us--his A isnt worse than my anger or pride or selfishness. What are realistic goals for me? Can I get to true detachment is 8 weeks? Isnt beginning to lose the fear of being alone, divorced a step along with stopping calls and texts? What would be a better step? Is going to C tommorrow a huge mistake? Puppy, you said you would practic what to say--I dont even know what to practice anymore. Tonight he came over and we watched som Denzel Washington movie about the medal of honor investigation--all about honor, lies, shame etc. H
Too many questions there to have time to answer, BNA. I'll try to take a crack at one of them, tho:
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So should I not even be going to MC?
That's for you to decide. For me, personally, I saw no value in going to an MC so long as my wife was in an active affair, unless the affair itself -- and the reasons why it happened -- were going to all be on the table. So long as my wife was lying to everyone about it, I wasn't going to waste my time, nor the family's money (my insurance didn't cover counseling).
I think IF it's not a financial burden, and IF you are reasonably assured that this is a pro-marriage MC (gosh, we would THINK that's a given, wouldn't we? , but sadly, it's not) and that the MC will confront your husband's issues and the need to get the OW OUT of the marriage while he makes his decisions, and IF you can deal with all of that in an honest way, then yes, I would go.
If not, then ICing is probably better for you, in my opinion.
We went to an associate of MWD in Illinois for C yesteday from 9 to 4pm, a mini intensive. She is a Divorcebusting C and she is pro marriage. Puppy--My H was upright about the reasons for the A--major unhappiness in our marriage, feeling not prioritized, feeling overwhelmed by my negativity, badgering, feeling not prioritized but is not ready for the Ow At the end of the session, My H agreed to do phone C with her too. After it all, I felt better last night and woke up this morning feeling terrible but its because like everybody else I dont like limbo or being patient. Basically, the C felt there was a "good news" in that my H is a moral man with a conscience (I know that sounds a little weird after a 2 year A) and his A is tearing him up and he does know it is wrong, a violation of his marriage vows, the antithesis of everything he taught his children and against his religious beliefs but he is basically like an addict now--he needs her--he keeps using the word "escape" from the the negatives at home. The C gently tried to plant the seeds that his escape is eventually going to have real life issues and problems but right now he just says she is never angry,rude, upset, or jealous--just understanding, happy, easy to be with, non demanding, fine with waiting for his decision.
The C said his crying and remorse over the lying and cheating is good because she gets many men who come in and see nothing wrong with the A if it makes them happy or the marriage was not good.
But the bad news is he is now so invested in the A that he doesnt want to hurt her. He does not have feelings (except he still cares, ILYBIDLY)for me but he does for her and is not ready to give her up. He does not want to hurt her. He is in the deciding mode about what to do and I believe if kids werent somewhat important to him the decision would be made for her. He did say that prior to "my completely out of what he considered would be my flip out, angry, crying response when he left"--he had promised Ow he would be out and getting a divorce but is not so sure now. COuld be lying again. The C said he is so used to saying things to people to avoid conflict that he cant really distinquish the truth. He will do anything to avoid hurting peoples feelings, conflict, negative emotions and it is a lifelong pattern
My gut reaction tells me that it is my adult children's response and anger that has really made him stop and think. On the car ride down, he told me he had no clue they would be angry at him. How can you have no clue but I reallly believe he is telling the truh as hesees it here. He said he talked to the Ow after the kids unloading on him and told her to be aware her kids might get angry at her too. Apparently they dont talk about any consequences of their actions. I told him the kids were not originally planning on seeing him at Thanksgiving or Christmas until grandpa died and that they have told me they will not be at Xmas next year with her there but will meet with him at a restaurant etc alone. He is totally blown away by this and never expected it. I told C in my private session that I wasnt sure I wanted him back if he would even decide for me if it is just out of guilt but she said people stay in a marriage for many reasons and that reasons can change. Right now he is on a kick about being honest with the kids as he thinks this will make it all better with th kids--wants to tell his mother. Amazing how when it suits him, being dishonest is to protect me and everyone else and now he thinks it will change the kids, he cant wait to be honest--except with the OW H! Honestly, talking and listening to him made me realize that he has very little self insight,cannot really think very far ahead in terms of consequences, people's emotions. When he gets uncomfortable with his emotions, he puts them in a box and involves himself in the present moment doing fun,light hearted conversation or watching TV, talking about the office with her and forgets about the "not so pleasant stuff" The C told him he really is between a rock and a hard place as any decision will end up hurting someone and will not be pleasant for him. She really kept revisiting how emotions come and go but our underlying morals and values do not change and we should use them as guideposts. I hope he heard.
As for me, I need to continue to GAL, to be happy, pleasant, non confrontational, talk in less than 4 sentences, slow down my speech, be a little distant, judge if what I am doing is working by whether his response is neutral, happy, upset. She did say he has hidden his true responses to me for so long that I am right when I say I dont trust myself to know if the his response is really positive or fake. But there isnt much I can do about that. I am getting IC too through DB.
But the bad news is he is now so invested in the A that he doesnt want to hurt her. He does not have feelings (except he still cares, ILYBIDLY)for me but he does for her and is not ready to give her up. He does not want to hurt her. He is in the deciding mode about what to do and I believe if kids werent somewhat important to him the decision would be made for her.
OK, my H did not actually leave the marital home but to all intents and purposes other things are VERY similar.
Youur H, IMO is in the ILYBINILWY mode because of the endorphins etc that are keeping him in OW's thrawl and also which stop him being able to see consequences etc. If he tries to look at the long term consequences he will fall apart. He doesn't want to hurt anyone but by acting how he is doing he is being very selfish and hurting everyone.
You can either carry on like this with everyone hurting and waiting at a 'lower grade level', which I liken to pulling off a band aid slowly, or you can push him to make a decision which will make for a quicker, more damatic and sharper resolution, but the pain will be over quicker, like pulling off a band aid faster; and then healing for all concerned can start sooner? Well, that's what happened with my H.
I hadn't found DB at that time though and what I am talking about is just from MY personal experience.
My H did not want to be seen as the bad boy - duh! What was good about having an A - someone was going to get hurt - but he was too invested in self soothing to see that at the time.
I dealt quite a bit by email with my H during this period, even though we lived under the same roof and slept in the same bed. It meant I could take my time in thinking about what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. It also gave my H a chance to re read what I had said and think about it. There could be days between responses sometimes.
I truly understand where you are coming from, and I can see why you are choosing the path you are. My gut tells me you are going to give your H all the time he wants to make 'his' choice and that is YOUR choice. If you think that is what will work then go for it.
My big fear is that whilst waiting for him to choose you will start to not want him. You will convince youself that he will probably not choose you, or if he does it will be for the wrong reasons, (that he wants to not upset the kids, not that he wants to be with you), and so instead of waiting to be rejected you will decide you don't want this M either. It will all linger on with no resolution and you husband continues to exist in the middle until you or OW makes the decision for him - therefore he is not the bad guy as he is not the one that made the decision. Is that right that he should be able to play it that way? Either way he will likely end up with a warm body next to him whilst either you or OW has paid such a high emotional price.
Just some thoughts for you.
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He will do anything to avoid hurting peoples feelings, conflict, negative emotions and it is a lifelong pattern
And I believe you are continuing to let him act this way. My H would have carried on forever in limbo land if I would have let him. I hope C/ T enables him to see that actually how he is behaving hurts people more. He needs to grow some balls.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
