Gyn I don't post here very often and I've read your thread. I've held off offering you any advice because you have been getting stellar advice... unfortunately you either seem to forget it or ignore it.
My comments on this latest escapade: In my humble opinion, you're getting played. You're letting her have her cake and eat it. Every time you start withdrawing and enforcing a boundary she tugs on your strings and has you jumping about like a little puppy. Can you see that? Please tell me you can.
e.g. You told her no more hugging... she tells you what you want to hear and keep you waiting, without committing to breaking it off with OM.
This is the way I see your situation based on the information you have provided:
You're being set up for a big fall in two or three years time. She is looking into a future without you. She has taken up her studies to prepare herself for a life without you. Her intention is to continue stringing you along and having you take care of her financial needs while she gets her emotional and other needs taken care of by the OM. Assuming she knows it won't last with him, she is using both of you (and anyone else) to selfishly satisfy all her requirements until she gears herself up for a better life.
You haven't provided any information about the OM, besides the fact that he's married and has been booted out of his house. Is your wife perhaps the reason he has been "evicted" from the marital home? It sure sounds like it.
I hope that you re-read the advice people have given you. Take their advice, formulate a game plan and stick to it. Remember, every time you have backed off your wife runs toward you. THIS WORKS. Keep up the activities that WORK. Pursuing her doesn't, rejecting her does. Weird isn't it? ... or as @robx likes to call it: counter-intuitive.
I wish you the best G&T.
M:11 | T:12 | Status: Married 4C's of WAS communication: Cool, Calm, Collected and CONFIDENT
I know we're not supposed to mind read, but felt I needed to "back up" my statements above.
Originally Posted By: Gynandtonix
She told me that she wants to be back by Xmas.
WAW translator: Xmas is holiday time. College is closed. I won't need OM to drive me around anymore, so I'll go home for a while to keep G&T happy until college opens again then be on my merry way.
Originally Posted By: Gynandtonix
She did not think that she would still be at her brothers and that she thought she would have been back by now.
Huh? Then where is the OM going to stay? Remember she BEGGED him no to leave her a few days ago. WAW translator: Got to get G&T back in line.
Originally Posted By: Gynandtonix
She says she can see and likes the changes in me. She asked for me to be utterly truthful and asked me if I had sought legal advice. She seemed to be very worried that I had gotten legal advice.
WAW translator: Has G&T finally had enough of my crappy behavior? Is he going to get rid of me and ruin my future plans?
Originally Posted By: Gynandtonix
She gave me a big, long, strong hug when she left and held my hand.
WAW translator: Bingo! Mission accomplished. He's got his hopes up again.
In other words, without any commitment made on her part she has you back under her thumb. I'm truly sorry G&T but I don't see anything mentioned of where she intends to truly reconcile with you.
To get her back you're going to have to keep doing what works.
From what I have gleaned from this site since I have been posting is that there are two lines of thought in trying to rescue an R.
Be a Friend. Empathy, being there without criticism, being non-judgmental. Allowing things to run the course. Detaching, Gal'ing and completing 180's.
Being Forceful. Set boundaries and strong enforcement to allow for successful detachment and improved well being. Trying to put a spanner in the works by disrupting the WAW's mind frame. Detaching forcefully. Making everything black and white - your way or the highway.
I agree that I have received stellar advice. Some very experienced people have taken time out to offer me advice, and it is very much appreciated.
I have wavered between the two camps.
But as MW Davies says - continue what works, stop what doesn't work. I have perceived more movement forward with my WAW by following the 'Be a friend' stratagem. She leaves in a better mood and we have connected more. This may be because she has gotten her way, and that she is keeping me hanging around as you say - but it is not my perception.
Whenever I have tried the 'Forceful' stratagem, I have felt an immediate fracture in our R, and and inherent coldness and pulling away. This may be b/c I have stopped her getting her way and broken up her little plan.
The problem between me and my WAW is a lack of communication, closeness and time together.
I see it that for me to repair our R I have to give and show that I can give these 3 things.
If I was to follow the 'Forceful' stratagem, I would be going against what I perceive to have started working, and putting a stop to trying to get closer, improve communication and increase our time together. I see and understand the thought behind the 'pulling away' stratagem, where the WAW would them fill the gap left behind.
But what happens if the WAW sees this as 'more of the same' from the R before the breakup. This is how I was before she walked. It is what caused the breakdown in our R. I did not know what to do and how to do these things - now I do.
If I give these 3 things and our R still fails, then so be it. I will have tried with what I perceive to be the best stratagem.
I know that the majority of people who visit this site do not reconcile. But I have read a lot of other threads - mainly the people who are good/kind enough to post their opinions and help on my thread. But I do note with regret a lot of posters who advocate the 'Forceful' stratagem have not been able to reconcile or are still in conflict with their WAW. I suspect that there is equal numbers of people who follow the 'Be a friend' stratagem who have also not been able to reconcile.
I am more inclined to follow the 'Be a friend' stratagem.
For the moment and as I see fit.
If I perceive that this is not working or that time is/has run out then I will follow the 'forceful' stratagem with a will.
When things will need a push from me I will use the occasional 'Forceful' tactic - as I have done so and as you acknowledge.
Regards, Gyn.
Ps.
If the WAW was to return home the OM would still stay at her B - he was there for a month before my WAW walked. My WAW has nothing to do with the OM's M failing. His wife had/is having an affair, (oh how my heart bleeds). She then kicked him out b/c she had moved her boyfriend in whilst he was still living there - some backbone he has. Xmas is time for family being together - this is a strong pull for the WAW to come back. It would be easier for her to be at home with regards to going to college. She could walk to it from home - but it is an 30 min drive from her B. The word on the grapevine is that she is hating being at her B's
I do agree with you thought on 'Has G&T finally had enough of my crappy behavior? Is he going to get rid of me and ruin my future plans?' I perceive that her plans are to stay away as long as she can stand it, then come home. She is using the question about legal advice as a way to measure the temperature of our R, and to decide how long she can stay away.
But there again, I could easily be wrong. If I am, I will post all of my failings in trying to fix my R and do my best to educate other posters.
I respect and honor EVERY view and opinion on my sitch. I have learnt so much from your postings and I believe that they have changed my life forever.
Please do not feel disappointment or frustration if I do not follow your opinions to the letter, but I must plough my own furrow - and I choose to do this by picking and choosing from both stratagems.
Cause all of the stars, Have faded away, Just try not to worry, You'll see them someday. Take what you need, And be on your way and, Stop crying your heart out.
my realization about my M was that I was cold, uncommunicative and separate from my WAW.
I did not spend time with her, make her feel special or essentially loved and I didn't spend even nearly enough time with her doing things together. I withdrew from my WAW at the start of our issues and devoted my time onto my boys - therefore making it worse.
How would withdrawing further and setting confrontational boundaries help in rescuing the R? (I understand that boundaries are not designed to be confrontational but safeguards and security for myself.)
[b]This would be more of the same actions that caused her to walk out.
To rescue the M I must 180 my previous actions with her - and fill the gaps in our R that I was leaving. The 'Forceful' stratagem is seen to be cold and separating by my WAW - and is part of the original problem.
Making her angry has been proven not to work with my WAW - she is as strong in her will as I am.
Talking, validating and listening to her with empathy has been proven to work.
As you say, continue what does work, not what doesn't.
Regards, Gyn.
Cause all of the stars, Have faded away, Just try not to worry, You'll see them someday. Take what you need, And be on your way and, Stop crying your heart out.
You're correct, you are the best person to decide which options to try. The purpose of DB'ing is to melt the ice that has accumulated for you in her heart to give your relationship another chance.
Likewise, I do NOT think that it is in DB'ing to become a doormat. The boundaries are for you to retain your wife's respect and your own dignity. I'm re-reading your thread and will post an "analysis" when I come back later tonight.
M:11 | T:12 | Status: Married 4C's of WAS communication: Cool, Calm, Collected and CONFIDENT
G&T, I don't remember anyone on this site advocating to be forceful. That's your perspective of what a boundary is. Nobody talks about DBing as being black and white that is your spin on the advice you get.
Empathy Compassion Detachment Boundaries
These things are healthy and productive in all relationships.
You don't confront your wife because she gets mad and you are afraid of it. This is what you say you want yet your actions say something different.
Quote:
The problem between me and my WAW is a lack of communication, closeness and time together.
Yes, you have a communication problem - you lie to your wife, she upsets you with her behavior and you lie dormant and act like nothing is wrong.
Closeness - you will never have it, how can she trust you? You are afraid of her emotions, how can you get close to her?
Time together - OM still in the way
I would substitute loving for forceful in you post. Would you allow your child to do something that was harmful to themselves, your family and you? Or would you consider it forceful to interject what the consequences of the behavior is? Love has two sides to it.
Cheers Coach
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Looks like a good place for some more advice, so I've just bought a copy.
"If you want to be with me, you have to cut off all contact with him AND agree to a transparency plan. If not, then go and be with him and I will file for divorce."
Confrontational and demanding - would only fracture our R further and this is a final-final LRT. I am not at that stage.
Originally Posted By: Gynandtonix Why not wait until the time is right and she may do the 'no contact', there would be more chance of it happening.
The right time is NOW. You tell her that it's your way or the highway. This is confrontational and is Black and White. How does this show compassion, empathy and how is this not an aggressive boundary setting. Would this work if it was spoken to you - how would it make you feel?
Originally Posted By: Gynandtonix It also seems to be a 'one use' tactic/boundary. You cant ask for it twice. By George, I think he's got it. You tell her that it's you or this guy, and she has 5 minutes to make up her mind. And 5 mins later it would be the big D full steam ahead. Toot Toot. Aggressive and demanding - I could almost imagine the finger pointing and feet stamping.
The first and main example set by MW Davies under the 'While your spouse decides' posting is of a man who advocated the 'Be a friend' stratagem.
I did not agree with the 'Doormat' comment - I believe that a M is all about giving and taking. Just b/c I choose which of my battles to fight, (and win), and i do not agree with you does not make me a doormat. You do not have to rise to every challenge - my manhood and integrity is not in question. I am not fighting my personal battle on behalf of all men - just myself.
Yes, you have a communication problem - you lie to your wife. NOW this is very true. Just never thought of it in such simple terms - I thought I was protecting her from pain. Boy did I get this wrong. All I was doing was swapping a slight and small pain caused by a simple truth into a deeper pain of a lack of connection, honesty and separation between me and my WAW that lasted a hell of a lot longer.
I value ALL view points. I am not attacking or defending one stratagem Vs another. But I feel that I must pick and choose that which I perceive would best achieve my aims. It just so happens that the majority of my actions fall into the 'Be a friend' camp.
Does anyone know which stratagem has had the most success at reconciling an R.
Does anyone know which stratagem has had the most success at creating successful detachment and mental well being in the event of a D.
It seems to me that you could try the 'Be a friend' stratagem for the former, and then move onto the 'Forceful' stratagem for the latter.
I suspect that most attempts at reconciliation start off as the former and move into the latter - and your stellar advice is designed to shorten the painful journey.
Regards, Gyn.
Cause all of the stars, Have faded away, Just try not to worry, You'll see them someday. Take what you need, And be on your way and, Stop crying your heart out.
My WAW gets her college grants, etc, very soon, and when she first walked out she said she may have to rent another place for a while. This has only been brought up once in the first 2 weeks of the separation and has never featured in any conversation again. Once she gets this money I can't get it out of my head that she may do just that.
My question is do I raise my fears to her, or wait and see what happens?
What would I gain?
If she was to rent somewhere else I would then have to follow the forceful stratagem. The next words from my lips would be the 'I will not live in an open M. I will not share you in any way.If you want to be with me, you have to cut off all contact with him AND agree to a transparency plan. If not, then go and be with him and I will file for divorce.'
Or am I just worrying over something that has / and may not happen?
DAMN! I know I should be focusing upon myself, but this is difficult.
Regards, Gyn.
Cause all of the stars, Have faded away, Just try not to worry, You'll see them someday. Take what you need, And be on your way and, Stop crying your heart out.
this is from Sandi2, she was a AWAW and was in a EA. She knows how women think, feel and their perceptions:
Quote:
Don't fear her anger. Expect it and be prepared for it. She needs to see a man who shows strength and won't be used as a doormat.
If she is in an EA with OM (and sounds as if she is) then she will have little respect or admiration for you as long as you try to "make her happy". As I'm sure you know, nobody can make her happy but herself.....but I will go another step and say that as long as she is in this WAW mode, then you really should not focus on trying to "please her". I don't mean to give you the idea that you should be a brute, but when LBH's start trying to please their WAW....it comes across as being "weak". If you have a WAW b/c of her feelings for OM....then she needs tough love to be applied.
Marriage isn't about giving and taking. You are giving (being a friend) with the expectation that it will show her your love. That's not true giving it's not authentic or genuine. Do you really believe your wife is doing the right thing right now? Sometimes being a friend means you tell someone they are out of line or screwing up, that's love.
Quote:
Does anyone know which stratagem has had the most success at reconciling an R. Yes Does anyone know which stratagem has had the most success at creating successful detachment and mental well being in the event of a D. Yes
open your mind, some of your views are dysfunctional
Even if you do everything by the book, you still could end up divorced.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
