I'm very careful with our D12 when it comes to this. Once I asked her what her problem was b/c she was sending out The Vibe. She turns to me and says, "I'm pissed off at you." While I didn't approve of her language, I applaud her ability to get to the point of how she felt at that moment and share it. I see myself as stopping a cycle when I give her the safety to go there.
Greek
Abso-bloomin-lutely and bless you.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Life is too short to be treated poorly by someone who you hoped would do the opposite.
Yep.
Isn't that what would be called script around here from a WAS?
We try to measure, manage and create time. Time is relative just ask any LBS after the bomb.
"Success is the peace of mind that is the direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you did your best to become the the best that you are capable of becoming." Coach John Wooden
Good quote. Another way of saying that I did the best that I could, and I did everything possible that I could, after the fact, to keep this divorce from happening.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
Touching on the topic of "you never get it right" etc. I recall feeling that general topics were discussed and agreements had been made and then H's actions exhibited what I perceived as a complete lack of thought or acknowledgement of such discussions and agreements.
Meaning that perhaps the general communications aren't specific enough to extend to the related circumstances.
For example, I expected that if we discussed not allowing the kids to see R rated movies, that covered all R rated movies when in reality, I guess they needed to be assessed one at a time...
I don't know if I'm making sense here. My point is that women often express not feeling heard; I think it is because we expect our sentiments to penetrate deeply enough to impact future actions...but often they don't. And guys often express "WTF? How was I supposed to know." And she responds, "well, I told you!" (just not specifically or clearly enough)
Yeah, okay, sure, right -- I think that's about enough of the mars/venus stuff.
Look, I "get it" that, when Woman asks Man, "Do you think I look heavy in this?" she's not asking a literal question. And I "get it" that, when Woman asks Man, "What do you think?" she (might) be looking for validation and security -- "I think your decisions always turn out well in the end."
Okay, okay.
But when Man asks a direct question and Woman replies "I have no preference" -- sorry, but we're not going to break out the Ouija board here lest, as @Kettricken pointed out, we're interested in degenerating into All Mind-Reading / All-the-Time.
And way beyond any of the internal woman dialogue psychological needs father figure bladee-blah-blah-blah -- let's just engage this: How unfair is it that Woman Half of Relationship thinks she has the right to constantly be testing Man Half? That's just toxic because it erodes confidence and trust. And that, of course, feeds into the whole Him/Her differentiation brouhaha because Him stops acting like he's full o' Manitude, and then Her thinks "Him sure isn't manly, let's go to the Big D (don't mean Dallas)."
Whoa there cowboy. I think I made a valid point. Just because your batsh*t crazy wife went off the deep end doesn't mean there aren't grains of wisdom you may want to examine.
And no where did I infer that the female is in the right or wrong in this paradigm just trying to illuminate (and as the female, I am bound to relate to female, if not completely, to some relevant degree).
There is a back story. There is her story. Or you were just married to the batsh*t craziest woman for umpteen years and were victimized and abused the whole time.
I don't think you got my point. I almost don't think you want to.
Exasperation as a theme is so prevalent for women and I think that part of it is thinking/assuming that a topic has been thoroughly covered when it hasn't.
And I'm also not talking about "literal" questions about weight, etc. I am talking about issues relating to child care, finances, family time, sex...I think we (in general) approach these in very dramatic but broad form and are baffled that it doesn't translate into the more specific events, decisions, actions etc.
Well, AK, there's the School of Mindreading, then again sometimes it's just a more garden-variety of communications breakdown, based perhaps as you suggest on assumptions about the broad applicability of a specific instance, or perhaps instead on a confusion about definitions, etc. What exactly did you mean by, "I think we (in general) approach these in very dramatic but broad form and are baffled that it doesn't translate into the more specific events, decisions, actions etc."?
Speaking for myself, beyond the whole "Just ask, dammit", I've also chosen to try to train myself out of my perfectionist tendencies (which I think are at the root of a lot of these questions of control). If you're (general you) that hung up on the minutiae of how it gets handled, do it yourself. But if you tell a man, "I trust you to handle it", then you've pretty much abdicated your rights to any post-mortem bitching about however he does handle it (within reason; not if he takes the mortgage payment and uses it to make a down payment on 1/23 of a used circus elephant). And naturally this applies to either gender. It's not mars/venus; it's basic common sense and fairness. For my money, anyway.
As far as that putative "testing" stuff goes, isn't that understood to be mostly unconscious on the woman's part? I don't see the relevance, anyhow. Statements along the lines of "you're worthless" etc aren't testing, they're just straight-ahead bitchy and destructive. If it was a man saying that stuff, no doubt the "abusive" card would be played early and often. For some behaviors, there is simply no excuse.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
I think we are back to confusing our own situations with Smiley's and therefore excusing SP's wife inexcusable behavior. A well-respected Political Science professor taught us that equality comes from the division of labor. In this case, the labor was divided and SP was entrusted with camp registration. When she berated him for his actual decision-making in his area of responsibility she essentially said to him, "I am your boss. You do not have the right to make decisions and you do not actually have any area of responsibility."
Now, SP has not told us how he reacted at the time. I find it hard to believe that a warrior like him bowed his head submissively and said, "Yes, Ma'am. Sorry, Ma'am". But if he did, then this was a flawed marriage because the spouses were not partners, they were boss and servant.
I think sometimes it is a matter of wanting (as I think Coach referred to) the man to take control AND to do it being mindful of previous agreements, assessments, conversations, etc. I guess if I have made it clear that I hate chinese food and months later H asks me what I want for dinner and I answer "your call" and he brings home chinese...I'm gonna get annoyed. Fair? Not sure. Call him worthless? No. I do however think there is a very prevalent dynamic here.
AND, I will go so far as to say that man or woman, if we're talking about moving forward, focusing on the "Oh my God, I can't believe he/she said/did that a year ago!" then why bother examining, exploring, learning?
As I told my sister who was in a R with a drug addict loser when he would make an astute observation about her short-comings, both can be true. He was a drug addict loser AND he happened to be right about a few things with regard to her dysfunctions. My point was not that she should stay with him, on the contrary, she had to leave him. My point was that she could work on her issues and separate them from him and their dynamic and especially not confuse his rightness about her with him being a safe person for her to be with.
If nothing else, I do think we should come out of these marriages with some understanding, growth and self awareness. And, perhaps humility as well.
I think we are back to confusing our own situations with Smiley's and therefore excusing SP's wife inexcusable behavior. A well-respected Political Science professor taught us that equality comes from the division of labor. In this case, the labor was divided and SP was entrusted with camp registration. When she berated him for his actual decision-making in his area of responsibility she essentially said to him, "I am your boss. You do not have the right to make decisions and you do not actually have any area of responsibility."
Now, SP has not told us how he reacted at the time. I find it hard to believe that a warrior like him bowed his head submissively and said, "Yes, Ma'am. Sorry, Ma'am". But if he did, then this was a flawed marriage because the spouses were not partners, they were boss and servant.
This is not a matter of excusing. None of us are enmeshed or involved enough to dole out pardons to anyone's spouse. It is a matter of understanding.
To me, it's not confusing our situations, it is trying to glean something from it for SP more than anyone else. But, I rarely make any headway on that front so I will chime out...
