Is this the end of my marriage?

[P17]

I thought I would try and just update this while it was fresh in my head. I will try and make it not too long a post (edit - I failed at that).

W was here, as I said and babysat for me until 9pm. She came in and we were laughing and joking a little. She couldn't wait to tell me a few things that 'you'll get a laugh at this' and it really felt a little like old times. So much so I quickly relaxed!

She sang a little bit. Sat right next to the fire (I have a coal fire here) like she used to do. Was chatting away with my daughter and seemed really happy. She even asked if I would show her some of my dance moves (see later - I was off to my dance class tonight).

I asked my W to come into the kitchen for a quick chat as my D was unhappy earlier and crying as she missed my W. I asked her to maybe speak to her later on and she said she would. She told me later my D didn't say anything to her.

I also told her that next week I am off to a dance in the next town to show off my new moves. She said 'oh, I was going to go to that as I missed it when it was here. It's okay thought I won't go.' I assume it was with the OM. I told her just to go anyway but I think it's 50/50 she will. Saying she didn't want to go when she found I was going kind of made me think she knew it was inappropriate for the OM to be there too with me there - not sure. Also not sure if that is a good or bad thing as if she didn't give a stuff, why would she care (in fact it may be a good time for her to rub my face in it).

However I would actually like her to go with the OM. If she does, I will make sure I dance my a$$ off all night. We never danced as a couple (my fault) and before we split we agreed to go to this dance class together. I want to show her I am enjoying myself, having a great time and also can now (sort of) dance as she loves to dance. I'm not sure at this stage how I will feel about the OM being there. However the number 1 reason I want them to go is it will be the huge push I will need to get up on that dance floor and show off my moves. I'm apprehensive as I'm not great at it. That is me using her being there. If I sit there and do nothing, she knows I haven't changed.

I left and they both said goodbye. I came back about an hour and 3/4 later.

My W was sitting on my D's bed reading her stories when I came in and they were laughing and joking.

Kissed my D goodnight and my W actually sat downstairs with me for about 10 minutes before leaving! We had a chat about this and that and it was quite nice. Again, no expectations and reading nothing into it. It was two people who knew each other chatting. There was no spark there, no love but more importantly no tension.

The best part of the interaction for me was that there was no stress from either of us, no hassle, no talk of the R, Big D or anything else. She mentioned that she received the letter from my lawyer about our separation agreement today and I just said that I got a copy in the post today too. That was it.

From my POV it was actually quite nice.

Finally she couldn't fail to have see the wedding photo (unless she is blind) back up and would probably have noticed my wedding ring. I also changed, cleaned and put fresh flowers in the kitchen and living room She actually said the kitchen looked nice which was a good compliment!

I said to her as she left that she can text or call me to ask about my D any time. I said I was trying to keep her updated but she could always ask me.

The only times I saw her not happy was when she came in and when she left. Not sure if that was because she was with me on my own, but I actually don't think that was as she spent time with me on her own and she was fine. I don't think it's not because she is unhappy with OM so not sure what it was. Not reading ANYTHING into that at all, just an observation and I could be honest be completely off base.

Comments?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I think she probably cares for you, and wants to know that you'll "be okay" with everything, as she knew (I'm guessing?) that you would have received the papers today?

It's called "normalizing," and it's very much script.

Oh, and "P.S." -- you can claim all you want to the contrary, but I DO think you're reading a LOT into it still! Your whole post still reeks of expectation and mind-reading, dude.

Sorry -- I know you're trying. And GOOD JOB on keeping things upbeat. It's just that if WE can feel the expectation here, in your posts, I can almost guarantee that your wife feels it in her interactions with you.

Puppy

[P17]

I think she probably cares for you, and wants to know that you'll "be okay" with everything, as she knew (I'm guessing?) that you would have received the papers today?

The papers came from me. I told my lawyer to send them to her so I'm perfectly happy. I got a copy of them so I knew what was in them - she got the originals.

The papers are also just a separation agreement, not the Big D. The separation agreement as I have is says that in the event of a Big D, she keeps her stuff and I keep all of mine. It also says we are now legally living apart. We are still very much married and only I can file for D at this stage, not her. It will be two years before she can file for a D.

Oh, and "P.S." -- you can claim all you want to the contrary, but I DO think you're reading a LOT into it still! Your whole post still reeks of expectation and mind-reading, dude.

Sorry -- I know you're trying. And GOOD JOB on keeping things upbeat. It's just that if WE can feel the expectation here, in your posts, I can almost guarantee that your wife feels it in her interactions with you.

Then that has gone past me as I really didn't have any expectations at all.

The only part I can think of was the dance and that was never mentioned to her at all, just in my head and to a friend. And it was all done while I was away, not before, so she didn't get it from me.

The other part about the wedding photo was me just saying it here. I didn't mention it to her. That is what *I* am doing. That's not for her. It's for me. She will see it in my house but I can't do much about that.

Finally, when I said to her she could text and phone me, that, I agree, was maybe too much. I shouldn't have done that for several reasons, one of which is it sounds like I am trying to suck her into contact. That maybe sounded needy. What I was trying to do was tell her that she can contact me about my D and I will talk to her. She hasn't done that yet and maybe it's because she won't open herself up because I may take D away and she will be rejected.

I can truly put my hand on my heart and say there was absolutely no expectation on my part for tonight. I just wanted it to go well so that we can build on it. It did go well. I was glad but I have no expectations of anything. I was just trying to report it here.

Mind reading. Absolutely not either. The only bit I did start to mind read was the part where she was unhappy. I quickly realised I was analysing it and stopped. She could be unhappy for a billion reasons (including her car having problems as it was tonight). Again I was just seeing it and reporting it. I hope it is with the OM, but it really doesn't matter as it doesn't affect me. If he goes, he goes. If he stays, he stays. If they have babies, they have babies. My life will continue regardless.

"normalizing" - I will go and look at the DR / DB book for that. I can kind of guess what it means though.

[P17]

The part about the dance was bad now that I read it again

It wasn't meant to be. I just thought the push I needed to get on the dance floor (and I want the push) would come from her. I also didn't understand why she gave a s**t if she was with her new man. That is analysing I suppose.

My time at the dance is based on whether she is there or not. That is not right. I think it just threw me a bit that she was going to be there with the OM - at least I assume it will be with him as who else would she be there with and not want to go!

She was also asking what to get my D for Xmas. I forgot to add that earlier.

Anyway, to be honest, when she is here I get all sorts of emotions that I try to mostly push down into myself. When she leaves some of them come out in the wrong way. In future, when I post anything I will leave it until the next day.

She is here again on Saturday afternoon.

I do promise I had no expectations about tonight though. For me, it was about being upbeat, understanding and hopefully building on something.

P.S. The separation agreement is about protecting me financially.

[sandi2]

You are deceiving yourself. You should have stuck to the plan.

When you go back an re-read your posts you see just how fogged out "you" are! In the same post you said you loved her but knew you were not in-love with her. Then you decide that taking all the wedding things down out of sight was you "reacting" to what she had done and that it wasn't about you! That is your problem! You are making it all about her instead of making it about you. The reason I suggested that you take all the pictures, etc. out of sight was so that you would stop acting like some love-sick high school boy and man-up and show how you had taken back the power in your life.....and start by making that "your" house instead of hers. But you just didn't have the b@lls for it and try to turn it all around and even get religious on us. And wasn't it one of your posts that you said something about "if it came to you having to use the LRT"........what or when do you think that would be? The time for the LRT is BEFORE the D....not afterward. From what you have described about your W, I don't think she will find you one bit attractive the way you are going about this. She has you so wrapped around her little finger--and all she has to do is come over with something funny to tell you.....and your in hog heaven! You are pitiful. Don't you know that she saw right through you and could see how "needy" you are? That does not appeal to a woman who lives with OM...who apparently had second thoughts about them living together. Maybe you should take a few hints from him!

You don't have to try and convince us that you are not expecting anything. But just so you'll know, we are not as confused as you seem to be. You have set yourself up for a huge disappointment.

Oh, just for the record.....about the wedding album and the difference in that and a cake........She was a "bride" and those were pictures of her wedding. Even if she gets D, she wanted to have pictures of when she was a bride. But, she had no use whatsoever for that cake with the tradition attached..........(D.A.M.)

[P17]

You are deceiving yourself. You should have stuck to the plan.

I didn't really have a plan. Just to keep contact between my W and my D.

pictures, etc. out of sight was so that you would stop acting like some love-sick high school boy and man-up and show how you had taken back the power in your life.....and start by making that "your" house instead of hers. But you just didn't have the b@lls for it and try to turn it all around and even get religious on us.

You're right. Hands up. I actually did have the b***s for it as I had done it for weeks. The problem was that I put my wedding ring back on and thought I should put the picture up too.

Are you saying remove both now?

And wasn't it one of your posts that you said something about "if it came to you having to use the LRT"........what or when do you think that would be? The time for the LRT is BEFORE the D....not afterward.

Possibly was me. The LRT scares me.

you.....and your in hog heaven! You are pitiful. Don't you know that she saw right through you and could see how "needy" you are? That does not appeal to a woman who lives with OM...who apparently had second thoughts about them living together. Maybe you should take a few hints from him!

You're right.

You don't have to try and convince us that you are not expecting anything. But just so you'll know, we are not as confused as you seem to be. You have set yourself up for a huge disappointment.

I actually wasn't expecting anything. But in higndsight I was needy as usual.

D, she wanted to have pictures of when she was a bride. But, she had no use whatsoever for that cake with the tradition attached..........(D.A.M.)

What is D.A.M.? I saw PDT mention it too but can't seem to find it.

I think my problem is the contact between me and her. If you look through my other posts before yesterday you will see I had a strength there and I did genuinely have that strength. That came from having no contact for over a week. That was good for me.

The problem is, when she appears or when she is due to appear the emotions all start to come flooding back again and again and I end up making a t*t of myself. I say something and try to justify it when in the cold light of day it's clear I am in a fog about it all.

I'm confused, tired, upset and emotional today. This is all from the 30 minutes or so contact from yesterday! That really is pathetic.

I gave my word I would keep contact going. I also said that contact would not be unsupervised. So I'm stuck between breaking my word and stopping contact or going through this each and every time.

I just don't know what to do.

[sandi2]

You are exhausted b/c you base everything around her. You have given her the power to call the shots in your life (so to speak). Your emotions are responding to all of that pressure you are under. You need to make a decision about how you plan to DB this M. We can give you our opinions but it still goes back to what you feel is right and will do. I believe that you need to take time to decide how you are going to handle this and then stick to it instead of being wishy-washy b/c that just keeps you torn up and it does nothing as for the DBing. But the way you "thought" you were handling things when she came over to your house the last time.....and what she saw, was two different things, IMHO. I think you were pursuing big time and even though you felt like the visit went well....I think you based that opinion on the fact she seemed to be in a decent mood.

Why are you afraid of the LRT? What is the LRT to you?

The problem was that I put my wedding ring back on and thought I should put the picture up too.

Well it seems there are different opinions here on the board about wearing the rings, but when you take it off...you are making a statement, right? So if you turn around and put it back on....you are saying, "I changed my mind" and to me it is a form of pursuing. Others call it making a stand for your M....but it is just a difference of opinions. However, if you are going to wear your wedding band, for crying out loud--wear it on the correct finger. What would wearing it in the middle finger signify? To me is would be saying, "I really want to wear my wedding band but I'm scared of her reaction...and since we may be headed for a D, I'll just not put it on the ring finger...and maybe that will keep me out of hot water with her". It is really a cowardly way of making a statement, so either go all the way or don't wear it at all.

The problem was that I put my wedding ring back on and thought I should put the picture up too.

Are you saying remove both now?

No, I'm not telling you to do that again. I'm saying that whichever way you decide to go....stick with it b/c it is is about "you" and how it makes you feel....and not to put pressure on her. I personally feel it was a backslide when you put everything back and it sends mixed messages to her....(and to your D)...but that is MHO. You seemed to have felt stronger about your life when you took the pictures out of sight, and it made a statement about "you". You were showing that you were strong and were going to make a life for you and your D and would move ahead in spite of the situtation. Now you have put "her" back into of your home....in a sense. What would you say to somebody who came to your house the first time and asked who the lady in the pictures were? You would say she was your wife. Then they would ask where she was and you would say, "Oh, she lives next door with OM, but I want to keep everything just the way it was when she was here". I just don't see how you can't see that as pursuing her b/c you know she is coming over there to see what you did (putting thhings back the way they were) and you were watching for her reaction. Whatever action you do in DBing, do it based on strength & honor and not based on emotions and weakness.

I think my problem is the contact between me and her. If you look through my other posts before yesterday you will see I had a strength there and I did genuinely have that strength. That came from having no contact for over a week. That was good for me.

I think my problem is the contact between me and her. If you look through my other posts before yesterday you will see I had a strength there and I did genuinely have that strength. That came from having no contact for over a week. That was good for me.

The problem is, when she appears or when she is due to appear the emotions all start to come flooding back again and again and I end up making a t*t of myself. I say something and try to justify it when in the cold light of day it's clear I am in a fog about it all.

So, is there a way you could go without any contact with her and have another person act as a "go-between" when she is suppose to visit your D?

I gave my word I would keep contact going. I also said that contact would not be unsupervised. So I'm stuck between breaking my word and stopping contact or going through this each and every time.

That is why you MUST apply the 48 hour rule (I think it may be 72 hours but don't know many who wait that long) and stop telling her things until you have it completely thought out.....and come here to the board and talk it through.

[P17]

You need to make a decision about how you plan to DB this M. We can give you our opinions but it still goes back to what you feel is right and will do.

I really don't know anymore. You're right. I am exhausted emotionally. I feel bad about it too as I was, at least I thought, doing so very very well. I was in control. I could see the future again without her and life, while still a struggle at times, was actually going pretty well.

I don't know how to DB this M. I really, truly don't. We had a good night last night and we chatted away which I saw as a positive sign but all DBing goes out the window as the emotions all come flooding back and I find them difficult to control.

I believe that you need to take time to decide how you are going to handle this and then stick to it instead of being wishy-washy b/c that just keeps you torn up and it does nothing as for the DBing.

I actually thought I had made a decision on how to handle it right up to the point where she came in and everything fell apart.

But the way you "thought" you were handling things when she came over to your house the last time.....and what she saw, was two different things, IMHO. I think you were pursuing big time and even though you felt like the visit went well....I think you based that opinion on the fact she seemed to be in a decent mood.

Not just the mood but also the interaction and the fact that there was no stress, at least from my side.

Why are you afraid of the LRT? What is the LRT to you?

Absolutely terrified of LRT. I know the reasons I should do it and I 100% agree with them, however my gut tells me when I do LRT I will NEVER see my W again. That terrifies me.

LRT to me is just go dark, no contact, nothing. It would be best for me as during the times when I have had no contact I actually get on really well as the other posts I hope demostrate.

Well it seems there are different opinions here on the board about wearing the rings, but when you take it off...you are making a statement, right? So if you turn around and put it back on....you are saying, "I changed my mind" and to me it is a form of pursuing.

I completely agree. It is also saying that "I can't make up my mind what I want".

Others call it making a stand for your M....but it is just a difference of opinions. However, if you are going to wear your wedding band, for crying out loud--wear it on the correct finger. What would wearing it in the middle finger signify? To me is would be saying, "I really want to wear my wedding band but I'm scared of her reaction...and since we may be headed for a D, I'll just not put it on the ring finger...and maybe that will keep me out of hot water with her". It is really a cowardly way of making a statement, so either go all the way or don't wear it at all.

Yeah, I agree. I want to fight for my M but I need to change my mind again (yes, I do that all the time especially when emotional). I have been wearing it for just a day and while it felt right when I put it on, it just doesn't feel right now. It feels like I am clinging to something. It just feels wrong. I suppose I had to wear it for that day to see. I have taken it off again. No doubt my W will see that as more indecisiveness.

No, I'm not telling you to do that again. I'm saying that whichever way you decide to go....stick with it b/c it is is about "you" and how it makes you feel....and not to put pressure on her. I personally feel it was a backslide when you put everything back and it sends mixed messages to her....(and to your D)...but that is MHO.

I completely agree. It sent the wrong messages that I was clinging and pursuing. While, like the ring, I felt good to put it back up, it just also felt wrong today. I actually felt a little "dirty" if that's the right expression.

You seemed to have felt stronger about your life when you took the pictures out of sight, and it made a statement about "you". You were showing that you were strong and were going to make a life for you and your D and would move ahead in spite of the situtation.

I did.

coming over there to see what you did (putting thhings back the way they were) and you were watching for her reaction. Whatever action you do in DBing, do it based on strength & honor and not based on emotions and weakness.

I didn't actually look for her reaction as I never really saw her for most of the night, but I still take your point.

So, is there a way you could go without any contact with her and have another person act as a "go-between" when she is suppose to visit your D?

I could. But bear with me and I will try to explain.

I have two views on this. My W left me AND my D to start a new life so why should she continue to play happy families with my D and act like she is still her step-mother. As an example, last night my W shouted downstairs from the toilet to my D, nicely, asking her where she puts <whatever it was> and it should be in the bin and not in the toilet ... I actually thought at the time "wait a minute, that's not your job anymore to chastise her". So my feelings there are she needs to realise the consequences of her actions.

My other view is that I gave my word that I would keep this going while it's not detrimental to my D. Both my D and my W want the contact to continue.

So if I broke contact, I would be breaking my word. Then again I want her to realise that she has broken our family apart and if she wants to still be a step-mum, she needs to step up and fight for our M.

Deep down, I know the LRT is the only way to go as the contact is crippling me for a few days after each contact and my W needs to realise her actions have consequences. So far I've been 'yeah come in and spend time with the D you abandoned just like you never left'. And to be honest, last night did feel a little like she had never left. She acted like she still lived there. She acted like she was still my D's step-mum. She even told me she spoke to my D and told her, no matter what happens, she will always love her. I just thought you are getting in there before Daddy does what he has to. I also thought, if you loved her that much, you would have fought for our M at least a little.

But, and I know this may sound weak and a bit patronising as most of you guys have probably been here, I know deep down that it will be the last time I see or hear from my W. That is a really tough place to be.

What I did realise when she was here is I still do, deeply deeply love my W. I still don't think I am in love with her but I do deeply love her. Letting her go is the only sensible thing to do but it's just so hard for me.

[sandi2]

And to be honest, last night did feel a little like she had never left. She acted like she still lived there.

I'm sure she did after seeing all her pictures, etc. out again. But, wasn't that what you were really hoping when you put everything out again?

Anyway, I would advise you to do nothing for a few days and give yourself a chance to rest. Emotional exhaustion is worse than physical any day. You can read what people have to say to you and you can read other threads.....but don't "act" on anything before thinking it over a few days, okay? I'm concerned that you are too easily talked into things.

[P17]

I'm sure she did after seeing all her pictures, etc. out again. But, wasn't that what you were really hoping when you put everything out again?

No it wasn't at all. I know this isn't her home and told me before she left she would never come back to it as it has too many unhappy memories. I also only put one picture up, at the top of the stairs. It was our wedding picture. I know it's still one too many, but I didn't put all the other pictures back.

I do wonder what signals it send to her too when I have sent her separation agreement paperwork and then stick the pictures up and my ring back on. The ring and pictures were a mistake. For me, as it just didn't feel right after only 24 hours, but also for those signals they send her.

Women apparently like men who are unavailable to them - I'm far too available and broadcast it at every available opportunity.

You can read what people have to say to you and you can read other threads.....but don't "act" on anything before thinking it over a few days, okay? I'm concerned that you are too easily talked into things.

I actually do little else at the moment but read this forum and other threads!

I don't feel I'm too easily talked into things generally. I feel I am being too easily lead at the moment in this as I really have no clue what to do so I think x, y or z may be worth a try.

I have just read a thread for example where somebody recommends ONLY doing LRT if there are period where you are or don't talk. Always keep the communication channels open if they are there ... our communication channels are there maybe they should be kept open. Then again maybe no. I am just very confused on what to do but I won't make any decisions until I get some responses, read the DR / DB book again (off to start now) and digest things.

I actually though of explaining away the pic in the house to my W by text or on Saturday when she arrives but then again, that will make things look even worse so I have decided just to ignore it.

As I said before, I felt so strong up until yesterday. I am very disappointed that I fell apart.