Thanks for the good wishes on My Main Man, KIA. Just got my memorial bracelet. Hooah.
@Coach -- I remember your mentioning that on an earlier thread, and I gave it some serious thought then and again yesterday.
Sure, I'm not an "objective" observer, but I'm pretty convinced that this evaluation is correct -- I mean, I have (very frustrated) entries in my journals from years past that seem to bear this out. One example -- she'd "challenged" (i.e., tasked) me to go sign the kids up for summer camp a year or so ago. Okay, it's a drag -- you have to wait in line for hours -- but ya gotta do etc.
Being a wise husband, I asked in plain English: "Is there any particular way you would rather we handle this? Check? Famous Credit Card?" And WAW, being Herself, said, "No, nothing, whatever works."
Ahhh, foolish me; I took that at face value. I should have realized it was the equivalent of, "Do I look fat in this?"
So off I go, full of pep, checkbook in hand, Famous Credit Card at the ready. I signed them up for the two sessions and paid for both in advance, as paying in advance netted you a 15% discount per child -- not too shabby, I thought, as it would at a minimum cover the extra fees for the field trips they have.
Upon return to the familial manse: "Are you insane!?!? Why didn't you call me and ask me first?!?! Chr*st I KNEW I couldn't count on you! Can't you do ANYTHING right? God! You're USELESS!"
So I'm gonna go with Control Freak.
Though I like it, the dinner party analogy doesn't work for me -- too many misspent years shagging plates in restaurants. I'm all about the Kitchen Team (dream GAL activity -- buy original 1930s diner, totally rehab, bring to Coastal State, open for breakfast and lunch, hang out behind counter and talk to everyone).
@robx: Do you have definite date for "D" day? How is the divorce process thus far, stalled, in progress, what state is it in right now?
No date certain. The Mouthpiece has his peeps finishing up the disclosure paperwork. Her Mouthpiece sent a really sh*tty, snotty letter to mine, one that p*ssed us both off. We're going to be preparing an offer over the next couple weeks. I can assure you that WAW Herself is going to Wig Out over it, but them's the breaks. Buy the ticket; take the ride. But 6 months and 1 day having passed from Date of Separation lo these 2 weeks ago, we could now theoretically get divorced on any court day of the week, quite apart from the fact that the "details" aren't settled.
And even a Grand Poobah and Head Mo-Fo In Charge of the Loyal Order of Heathen like me knows "who" is in the details....
Makes sense to a man. Here are your orders, you got all your resources in hand, when you arrive on the scene you will gather intel and execute the mission.
Me thinks she wanted to know how you were going to do it before you did it. Some people are information seekers it provides comfort. I am sure you ran into guys like this in the Army, can't make a decision because they think they might make the wrong move so they need more intel, meanhwile the situation has changed. When there are too many variables at play it stresses them and they want to defer the decision to someone else. Like she wanted you to lead but be informed along the way. Doesn't excuse her poor reaction. That reaction had nothing to do with the positive outcome. It's one of those female tests that perplex us.
Plus the dynamic of a control freak made her look like a worrier to you. So to balance it out you were probably easy-going and laid-back.
One of the local diners here made it into the just announced Top Ten list. Plus one of my HS hangouts made it, The Bel-Loc Diner, they still have the mini-jukeboxes at the table.
Was the marathon what you expected?
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
And doing that, I could see where I'd made some tactical errors to be sure -- but on the whole nothing that would have led (I think) to a decisively different outcome. The bottom line was this: WAW cannot give up the notion -- which would be consistent with my 22 years of knowing her -- that she's in charge.
Recall, you who have been following the Saga of Smiley's Person, that one of the "bads" I did in the marriage -- one of the things I had to 180 -- was that I "let" WAW be in control. Polarity, unmanly, etc.
I'd sort of forgotten, however, just how much of a Control Freak WAW really is. So as I can see, the way I evaluated her seeming re-thinking of the Big D (don't mean Dallas) was this: She took Ultimate Power -- ameliorating her own feelings of powerlessness in the marriage (as told to me and two marriage counselors) -- when she dropped the Bomb. She would define when the marriage ended, and it was then.
Thinking about the control observation. I thought the Greek was a control freak too. What she really wanted was security in the issues she needed me to lead on. But to me it looked like control, when it was really the opposite, she wanted me to take on more of the responsibility. The things I viewed as her wanting to control were the things that caused her the most stress. The more she wanted control the more I backed up, I thought she was handling it. This is a Mars/Venus issue.
My experience taught me that if someone was grabbing for all the power and control then they did not want or need help. This is man think. The analogy that helped me was of a dinner party. Man cooking on his grill with 5 different meats, 3 vegetables and two sauces going (plus the beer marinating in the cooler.) Does this guy want your help? No, it's his domain. Your job is too drink his beer,look over his shoulder, nod approvingly and say something meaningless - "that's what I'm talking 'bout." Now, woman in the kitchen - she's making all the sides, setting the table, keeping the appetizers moving, keeping wine glasses full, and clearing the sink. She wants and welcomes help, all the woman intuitively slide right in and get busy. The woman is in control but she wants and needs the help - support, love, talk, and bonding. One of my "AHA" moments in DBing.
Sorry about your buddy. It's heartbreaking news.
Cheers Mate
Puts things in a very different light. I can see now where I failed to help out the W when I should have.
Me 44/W 32 S1 M8 Bomb 9/25/09 Separate houses (about 1 hour apart)
So off I go, full of pep, checkbook in hand, Famous Credit Card at the ready. I signed them up for the two sessions and paid for both in advance, as paying in advance netted you a 15% discount per child -- not too shabby, I thought, as it would at a minimum cover the extra fees for the field trips they have.
Upon return to the familial manse: "Are you insane!?!? Why didn't you call me and ask me first?!?! Chr*st I KNEW I couldn't count on you! Can't you do ANYTHING right? God! You're USELESS!"
So I'm gonna go with Control Freak.
You are being kind. I call that verbal abuse. In my home that could only happen once. My husband would never have willingly done me a favor again. And I would have understood.
[quote] Me thinks she wanted to know how you were going to do it before you did it...
Absolutely. I got burned too many times on this one. The translation is "I can't describe it but I know what it is when I see it." (10 points if you know the famous quote)
The correct response is an immediate reply. Guess if you have to but get something out there so you know if you're in the right neighborhood; "Well I'm thinking we go to Louie's for the Rack of Lamb and then catch the nine-o-clock Big-Man-Action-Flick" (now wait...)
"Oh no, I'm thinking more like salad then the Girl-Meets-Guy-Flick."
"Then seven-o-clock at the Herb-and-Fern Place it is."
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Interesting you have all these observations on power lately. I've been pondering a lot of the same things.
It really makes me want to not so much push back but just step aside and let her punch at air.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
True story: Earlier this week, my dad was riding in a car full of people. A younger woman asked an older woman, "Should we stop somewhere so you can use the bathroom?" Older woman: "No, I'm fine." My dad, being no fool, thought he detected a hint of rodent and asked the younger woman, "Do *you* need to use the bathroom?" Younger woman, "Yeah, I'm dying here."
W.T.F.?.
I don't know what kind of freaky anachronistic barefoot-and-pregnant-handmaidens socialization this is, but I'm against perpetuating or enabling it. I wonder to what degree WAW rage is driven by a head-on collision between this obsolete socially-determined disinclination to state needs/desires directly and the power/responsibility that comes with being an equal breadwinner, etc, in this egalitarian age.
Whatever. You can talk about mars/venus all day long, but in the final analysis, it's supremely unfair to behave in a way that punishes one's partner for being an imperfect mindreader. Talk about your ultimate cheeseless tunnel, for both parties.
Over and over, I see this. (And it's not all women doing it to men, yo.) The party of the first part sacrifices and suppresses and sucks it up, in *silence*, and eventually develops an irremediable font of resentment and a state of supreme pissed-offness at the poor oblivious party of the second part who didn't "step up" and make corresponding sacrifices and/or do all the things they "should have known" to do to reward all the pretty little martyrness.
I guess it irritates me to see men (or anyone) inclined to take responsibility for not being sufficiently "sensitive" or adept WRT this particular dysfunctional dance.
Solutions? Dunno. Best I can figure, ask specifically for detailed input regarding preference, timing, etc. on any task or choice with joint impact. Then do your spouse the honor of taking them at their word. If this results in fallout, put a stop to it right smartish by articulating your displeasure at the disrespect and walking away from the abuse, if nothing else.
Why is simple honesty so hard? I ask myself that as someone who came damned close to torpedoing a perfectly good, even awesome, marriage as a direct result of the above dynamics. You have to articulate your desires to yourself and accept them as valid before you even have a prayer of doing that with your partner.
I guess that's another part of the solution. It's much easier to be honest and open about needs and dreams if they aren't received as nitpicks or putdowns by your partner. So working to produce an atmosphere where it feels "safe" for either partner to speak their mind without being encouraged to feel monstrous for so doing seems like a good goal.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Makes sense to a man. Here are your orders, you got all your resources in hand, when you arrive on the scene you will gather intel and execute the mission.
Me thinks she wanted to know how you were going to do it before you did it. Some people are information seekers it provides comfort. I am sure you ran into guys like this in the Army, can't make a decision because they think they might make the wrong move so they need more intel, meanhwile the situation has changed. When there are too many variables at play it stresses them and they want to defer the decision to someone else. Like she wanted you to lead but be informed along the way. Doesn't excuse her poor reaction. That reaction had nothing to do with the positive outcome. It's one of those female tests that perplex us.
Plus the dynamic of a control freak made her look like a worrier to you. So to balance it out you were probably easy-going and laid-back.
That's not an environment that anyone could live in & succeed. You would always be worried about doing the wrong thing. At one point a person has to rationalize with themselves
"Do I live like this forever? Do I always have to be afraid that my every action is going to meeting disapproval and a poor response? Is this a fun way to live? "
No one can live like that. SP she asked you to do something and you did it, to boot you saved 15% per kid, the camp thing is something she asked you to go & do, you asked for a few details up front and she said "whatever", you know that word gets used alot, it has a few different meanings like "f!@#$% you", "I don't give a f!@#$%", "I don't care as long as I'm not the one taking care of the details".
When she told you that she couldn't count on you and that you never doing anything right and all that other stuff, I would have told her "STOP! You asked me to take care of this and I did it. You didn't ask me to find out more about this and get back to you. You're way out of line and I'm not going to stand here and listen to you talk to me so poorly, next time here's a suggestion from me to you, don't say 'whatever?!' if this is actually going to bother you afterwards. Buh Bye!"
Turn your back & leave, I don't care if she had a million things to say to you about this, she needed to realize that you won't be spoken to like that anymore. She is used to talking to you like that, that's a pattern of behavior that she's probably been repeating for years and the pattern you repeated was that you stood there & took it. You may not be able to change how she acts but you can certainly change how you act. Don't ever give her the benefit of acting & talking like that with you - life is too short to be treated poorly by someone who you hoped would do the opposite.
I don't know what kind of freaky anachronistic barefoot-and-pregnant-handmaidens socialization this is, but I'm against perpetuating or enabling it. I wonder to what degree WAW rage is driven by a head-on collision between this obsolete socially-determined disinclination to state needs/desires directly and the power/responsibility that comes with being an equal breadwinner, etc, in this egalitarian age.
Why is simple honesty so hard? I ask myself that as someone who came damned close to torpedoing a perfectly good, even awesome, marriage as a direct result of the above dynamics. You have to articulate your desires to yourself and accept them as valid before you even have a prayer of doing that with your partner.
I guess that's another part of the solution. It's much easier to be honest and open about needs and dreams if they aren't received as nitpicks or putdowns by your partner. So working to produce an atmosphere where it feels "safe" for either partner to speak their mind without being encouraged to feel monstrous for so doing seems like a good goal.
I think 'safety' is a large part of the equation. And FOO has A LOT to do with this.
Greek
Me45 H46 T25 M22 S21 & 19 D13 Separated and filed 8/08 Moved home 11/08
Absolutely. I got burned too many times on this one. The translation is "I can't describe it but I know what it is when I see it." (10 points if you know the famous quote)
Justice Stewart when asked to define "pornography".
