WAW and 4 kids

[tryingtilDorR]

Time for an update.

W has been very emotional/irritable all week for some reason. She has also been more withdrawn at the same time.

She is going out of town for a couple nights to a wedding with my ILs this weekend, and I think that is bugging her. She generally doesn't like being around my ILs these days because she feels guilty I think. She even told me "I don't want to go - I HATE weddings!" This is the first time I have heard in the 26 years we have been together that she hates weddings.

Most of the time I don't initiate contact with her when I am not with her via phone/text, but I do on occasion for logistical purposes but she NEVER replies any more. She even confirmed this 'policy' in front of our children the other day ("I NEVER respond to your text messages"). Later I told her that this looked very bad in the eyes of the kids since we would NEVER want them to ignore our text messages/calls, and her stating this in front of them makes it seem OK.

I have a dilemma - I have access to her phone records but she doesn't know. I wasn't planning on telling her unless she moved out possibly, since I am just monitoring to see what I am dealing with. I see interaciton with OM about once a week. It is usually text msgs and earlier this week he called her for a few minutes. She has used another phone in the past but swears that she doesn't have it anymore (not sure I believe her but not much else I Can do). I obviously believe that there is more contact than what I am seeing. I feel like confronting her about it (again) but it would mean revealing that I have access, and she will take steps to fix that. I am kind of stuck I feel, and I guess for now I will stay in this holding pattern to watch for things to escalate.

I can't control her actions at the end of the day I Realize, and she already knows my boundaries. She already views herself as seaparated in spirit, but just not on paper for the most part. Her lack of communication with me, even about the kids, illustrates her position pretty well.

Our kids are sad - I can see it in their faces and I feel bad. Her answer is that we need to be apart to IMPROVE their lives. I try not to argue about much, but did say the best way to improve their lives would be to work on the M but she says it is "too late" (as usual, script - especially when OM is lurking).

While she still is there living with us, her attitude has gotten darker and she now talks about leaving after the 1st of the year, but that I need to pay her to help her move out because it is the LAW!!! I have told her I won't pay for anything unless it is part of a divorce agreement where support terms are defined as part of the filing. I will not agree to pay her under terms of a 'separation agreement' because both parties have to consent to that and I won't. If she wants to leave without taking steps towards filing for D she needs to step up and pay for it (she can afford it if she works more, and she has more money).

Other than that, I have been pretty unemotional when we discuss these things but she is very emotional. I really think she is heading for some sort of crisis or breakdown.

Our 20th anniversary is next week. I don't plan on mentioning it at all and will treat it as just another day as far as my interaction with W and kids, but I will spend some time at the church we were married at and light a candle and give thanks for the good things the M has brought to my life and our childrens' lives. At the same time I am giving the 'outcome' to God, although I feel like it is already over for the most part - I am just not going to be the one to take action to legally end it since ultimately it isn't what I want, but I don't want a M to my W as she is today either!

Not sure where that leaves me, except waiting for some sort of miracle I guess...

[tryingtilDorR]

Well, my 'holding pattern' on telling her I know about her phone records didn't last long. I have been watching the phone records for several months, noting communication with OM about once a week but biting my toungue about it, and detatching as much as possible, recognizing she has to choose to not communicate with him and that my past attempts to force her to stop haven't worked.

She has been really acting strange and irritable this week, and I know OM called her on Wednesday so I told her last night "I still don't want you talking to OM - it offends me after what happened earlier and to me any communication with him is wrong, even if you say it is just friends and not like before."

She lied and said she hasn't talked to him, etc etc. I told her please don't lie tome and lets just be honest about this. I then realized I wasn't exactly being honest either since I had been looking at her phone records without her knowledge so I told her.

Her immediate concern/reaction was that I had now been able to see ALL of the details about calls from when she was having the EA most intensely and she said she is sorry I had to see that.

We got into a bunch of arguing about D/S. She refuses to get a lawyer and/or file. She is telling me to do it. She is saying she refuses to change her work situation and I told her that a judge would not force me to pay support based upon her working part time.

All in all, I still think D/S is a fantasy to her. She doesn't want to bite off all the reality. She keeps coming up with unreasonable conditions that would prevent it from happening. She wants me to sell the house so she can get her equity out, but she wants more money than it is worth. If I say fine, let's sellt he house, she says NO because it is not worth enough now. If I say fine, you move out and we will set a date in the future to value the house and split it she says no I want my money now and don't want to have to rent. ??!?!??!!?!?

The argument/discussion ensued from that point for about an hour.

Here are some relevant quotes....

TDR: If you leave, I plan on talking to OM's girlfriend (he lives with a woman he had a child with, but claims they are just co-parents and not together - the same thing W has been implementing with me) and telling her about you guys. She will deserve to know if you leave since you will likely be with OM.
W: (panicky look in her eye) why would you do that? What are you going to tell her ?? They aren't 'together ' so it wont' matter.
TDR: I'll believe it if SHE tells me they are not together. His word on this topic is obviously worthless.

<she knows I have phone records now, as well as recorded conversations that would be plenty of 'proof' that they couldn't deny>

W: I may talk to OM now and again he is just a friend like anyone else I talk to and I have no feelings for him like before. Back when I was talkign all the time to him (EA time) I was kind of off my rocker for a while.

<back when I discovered the EA I told her I could forgive because she was kind of 'temporarily insane' and now she is basically admitting this. I guess that is a good sign.>

W: You are going crazy, snooping in my phone accounts, talking to a phsychic, etc etc
TDR: I have made mistakes and it has been a hard year. I haven't always reacted in ways that were productive, but the snooping/surveillance was somthing you drove me to do based upon your behavior and pattern of lies. They don't give you a manual on how to handle this very hard situation. Some day I will look back on this year and realize just how tough it was - it has been the hardest thing I have ever had to go through.
W: you made me go through 'hell' for longer than this

<this is total crap - she is rewriting history thinking that what she has put me through is what she went through for years - I never had an EA and moved out of hte bedroom, etc>


W: You can't be happy and why would you stay in a M like this?
TDR: I agree - I don't want this. However, I have learned what my vows really mean. When you say them at your wedding ceremony they are just words for the most part, but I have learned the true meaning of sticking with a M for better or worse. <she got misty eyed at this point>

TDR: I don't want a divorce, but I don't want to stay in limbo forever either.
W: Then why don't you do something about it. File for D. You can move out - who says I have to?
TDR: It isn't up to me if we get a D or not.
W: Who is it up to?
TDR: You are the one who has declared this M over so you should do it, otherwise, it is up to God, not me. I made a vow. I also shouldn't have to leave my home because you have decided you don't want to be M any more.

The conversation ended pretty calmly. I feel like we made some sort of connection. We will see if it makes any difference. We learned that we will really struggle settling on separation/divorce terms, but neither wants to spend $$$s on lawyers so we are at a stalemate. She will stay in this situation for a LONG time I think.

It tells me she REALLY DOESN'T want a D, or at least doesn't want it bad enough to make it happen. If she really wanted it she could make it happen - she has her own money tucked away and I have shown her that there are plenty of reasonable living arrangements for her. She only wants it if she is not inconvenienced much - she is crazy.

My only option is to file D papers myself. I am going to re-assess in January, assuming the next 2 months are bearable and civilized.

I told her an alternative would be to delcare a 'truce' and stop assuming that the M is over, and go back to the position of 'maybe it is, maybe it isn't' since neither of us can predict the future. She wouldn't agree to this, and also stated she has stopped going to her IC. She just doesn't want to work on it right now so I dropped this. Back to Detatchment. She will now close off access to her phone account now.

She left for an out of town wedding with inlaws this weekend.

[tryingtilDorR]

So, now that she cut off access to the phone records I am realizing that it is a way to force me to detatch further. I actually don't feel like checking that much, but it had become a daily habit and a barrier to detatching.

She knows that I don't approve of ANY communication with OM. All I was validating was that she continued to do it.

Now I can hopefully turn my focus away a little more.

After the discussion on Friday she understands that communication with him is wrong and why I have a huge issue with it. She used to say "I am not DOING anything - I am just talking". I think she still clings to that position and deep down may believe it is OK because she has less feelings for him now than before.

The big 'change' at this point is now she realizes that I know ALL the details about their communications back when EA was in full swing and she acknowledged that is why she wouldn't let me into her phone account - she was embarrassed at how bad it looked back then (Oct08-Mar09) and didn't want me to know. Otherwise, she claims she was willing to let me see any phone bill going forward but I 'didn't ask'.

I was assuming she wasn't volunteering it because she was hiding stuff. She doesn't think occasional communication with OM is wrong so she was willing to show me.

If I ask she will show me going forward I have a feeling. Right now I am kind of glad I don't see it anymore - it is helping me to separate/detatch further.

[tryingtilDorR]

Tommorrow is our 20th wedding anniversary. I would have expected to be much more emotional over this, and I would have several months back, but in many ways it is just another day but it does have special significance that I will enjoy recognizing. There have been a lot of great things because of this marriage and I am grateful for it even though it has been very trying over the past year, and difficult for several years.

As I stated earlier I am going to get off work early and go to the church we were married at to give thanks for what the M brought to my life and acknowledge it as a good and positive thing while it lasted.

As far as interaction with the W, I don't plan to mention the anniversary but I did buy a couple of cards just in case she got me one. One is blank that I will write something for tonight.

It is dead now - there is no M except on paper - therefore this attitude seems appropriate.

[tryingtilDorR]

More updates ..

Well my anniversary ended up being an emotional day unexpectedly. I am not sure why I figured it wouldn't be. I went to the church we were married in and was overwhelmed by emotion for whatever reason. I thought I would enjoy giving thanks, but I felt a lot of despair about the fact that the M is ending. I guess these are emotions that need to come out at some point. I don't know for sure that it is ending since I can't predict the future, but if you just looked at our current behavior it is done.

W didn't acknowledge the day at all, which was expected.

I decided I wanted to buy a car. Our finances are separated for the most part. I found something I wanted that seemed like a really great deal. W had a fit. I at first I wasn't even going to talk to her about it and just do it, but I decided to discuss it with her. Her reaction was that I didn't need it (I actually do because we have a teenager about to start driving, but she says this every time we ever bought a car).

Her reaction was all wrapped up in arguments about how much money I would pay her if she separated, how SHE would like to buy her own house but she can't afford it, and all kinds of other stuff like that. What the heck does any of that have to do with me buying a car (an inexpensive used one)?

She made the following statement: "Our M has been terrible - most couples would discuss making a major purchase."

My answer: "We ARE discussing it! Do you think that a M couple should never disagree?"

She is kind of whacky right now. I think she is in the death throes of an argument with herself about leaving.

We shall see.

[tryingtilDorR]

W and I had a fight this weekend - it was kind of dumb but I regressed and got sucked in again (it was primarily about OM, whom she still talks to at least weekly via text). We had had a tense few days after arguing about buying the car. These fights don't happen as often as before, but it still happens and kids heard us fighting. It has been an emotional week.

I am realizing how much wear and tear there is on an LBS in this situation where the W declares the M over but stays int he house for a year in my case so far. It is a hard situation to live in even though it seems like the right thing to do to try to save the M and to keep the kids and parents together. I don't feel sorry for myself but I am just recognizing that I regress at times.

She now says she is moving out and has been looking at places and is going to talk to her L this week to understand her 'rights' regarding separation (translation: how she can get me to pay her when she moves).

I have told her I won't agree to a separation and as far as I know both parties have to agree in my state otherwise it turns into a Divorce.

She wants us to get another place and alternately move out and I have told her repeatedly I won't do it and that if she wants out of the M she needs to take steps to leave.

It has been rough - it seemed like the tension level had dropped significantly before but for some reason things ratcheted up lately.

I apologized for my part of the argumemt which was primarily conducted outside and away from the children at first but she escalated it to the point where the kids got involved (she was trying to get them to pack their stuff to leave with her) and upset. However, in her mind it was all my fault since I did start it and she is using it as ammunition to justify leaving because kids shouldn't see this (I agree on that part for sure).

Not sure where things go from here - I am going to calm down and let her do her thing. I think she will sort out what to do for sure when she talks to her L.

[Coach]

What was working when you were having some progress?

[tryingtilDorR]

I think it was not arguing about OM-related stuff for the most part, and trying ot be positive around her and avoid issues. I just get angry thinking about the fact that the 2 of them still talk to each other even if she has backed off from the level of contact they had before (hours a day on phone). My pride is hurt more than anything since I had asked BOTH of them to stop and some times it eats away at me. There is no reason for them to have contact - they don't work together or have other connections. I some times let it go pretty well, however, but other times it bites me.

However, when you look at the situation overall there really hasn't been progress over the past six months since I busted the EA (but obviously it could be a lot worse now I guess if EA didn't taper off). There are things in her own life that have improved that I see but it hasn't helped the M. There are things in my life that have improved a lot as well, but M is still in limbo to slow deterioration. Even when we seemend to be doing OK it wasn't really much - just less tension but no moves back towards M. I just felt better, however, and it was definitely good for that reason.

I keep thinking about the 'do something different' advice and I know it is true. Maybe her leaving and shaking things up will be a form of 'do something different' that is positive, but I doubt it. It is just a way for her to create more distance and a step towards D. She claims she is doing it to escape the tension at home. I know it will help me to detatch more, although she claims she will be around the house 'a lot' to help with kids and pets (???? not sure about this arrangement ???)

In the end, she may not leave. She has talked about it for months and never did it. she seems pretty serious now. If she does, living away will hit her hard I believe - she loves our kids and it will hurt her not living with them but I am tired of her being around 'just for the kids' although I looked at it as a way for us to R at some point.

[tryingtilDorR]

More observations... there is a new player on the scene here - My Mother. My mother and I have had our issues over the years but my wife is very fond of her (kids love her to death) and W has always wanted me to have a better relationship with her. She is a very smart woman and very analytical in lots of ways.

She (mother) knew we were having M problems, but she had no idea what was really going on behind the scenes (EA/OM, W sleeping in other room, W flat-out stating M is over for past 12 months, etc).

She got all the info when she intervened the other night (kids called her because W was trying to make younger ones pack to leave with her). She really diffused the situation and made the kids feel better, who were frightened by my W's actions (and my too I guess, but she was trying to force them to leave with her).

Ironically, she may be the last person who has a chance to get through to my W. She went through a bunch of female issues in her late 30s (early menopause, depression, etc) and thinks W is going through some sort of similar crisis, and wants to talk to her about it and try to get her to see her own psychiatrist. W stopped going to her IC about a month ago (it was just a MF counselor, not a psychiatrist). My mother rattled off a list of things that what I know women going throu MLC go through as what is affecting my W. My mother hasn't done any reading on MLC, BTW, she is just recounting her own experience.

My mom had a long talk with her the other night after the argument, and plans to try to spend time with her tommorrow to talk some more. W has resisted this kind of 'help' from her own family because they judge her badly, but she may listen to my mother, who is 'sympathetic' to her even though she is horrified about what has been going on the past year.

She told me she is worried I would have a heart attack, and that I have aged over the past year a lot and the stress is noticable on my face, etc. Bummer for me I guess!

I haven't sat down to talk to my mother this deeply in many years - maybe this will be a by-product of this crisis - redeveloping a deep connection with my own family again( one of the issues W always complained about BTW - that I wasn't close enough with them, but that's another story!).

[tryingtilDorR]

We had a sleepover party for S11's birthday this weekend (10 boys ages 10-12 were here). Tension seems to be down this weekend as we focused on the party and visited with some of the parents of the kids last night that we have known all our lives for hte most part. It seemed like old times.

I am realizing that there has been a lot of emotion swirling around us the past 2 weeks, which have led to several emotional arguments/discussions documented above.

I think the 20 year anniversary was an emotional undercurrent for both of us that had an impact on us.

Her words make her sound like she is closer to leaving than ever, but it is hard to tell if she is really prepared to do it. I think the next 2 months, over the holidays, will make or break us. Either we make it through and she resolves herself to staying around for the long term, or she makes up her mind and leaves either in the next few weeks or just after Christmas.

I just have a gut feeling limbo will be broken by January in one direction or another because we seem to be at a breaking point right now. Her birthday is also this week which also may be making her think a little more about what she really wants to do - milestones tend to do that I think.

I have been thinking a lot about the situation I am in with her and how distasteful it really is. If you forget about the fact that we have been together over 25 years and have built a life together with 4 children (hard to forget, I know, but if you exert a little mind control you can do it) I realize that there is no way in hell I would want to be a R with this woman given how she treats me (I've made my share of mistakes in reaction this past year, however). If you can forget about everything that surrounds us, there really is nothing there. She and I have both done things to damage this marriage, although I belive all is recoverable if there is a desire to do so which she doesn't have.

When I stepped back to think honestly about it I realized she hasn't expressed once that she would like to work on the M or make it work in the past 12 months - that seems like a long time and it probably stretches back before EA started (18 months?). This should be telling me something. She has repeatedly told me she is only here for the kids. I think she is not thinking clearly, but she never has 'woken up' to agree with me on this point so whatever I believe doesn't matter as a result (although, she HAS recently said she was 'off her rocker' when she had the A where she was on the phone for hours a day for 4 months).

When I think about her interaction with OM, secrecy, disrespectful behavior towards me, and everything over the past 12 months else I realize there isn't much to lose here as far as the R between us goes if you igonore our kids/home - it is hell really and it is taking a toll on our kids (D15 for sure).

Like her, I guess I am here or my kids however and trying to tough it out for their sake, but in the long run this is no way to live.

I will persevere as long as I can and let her make the move to S/D, but I need to not anguish about losing this R because it is kind of toxic.

I think some of hte stuff my mother told me about my health being impacted by all this is making me think a little more honestly about what is really going on here, and recognizing without denial how dire the situation is and the low likelihood of anything changing for the better.

In the end our kids are better off if we find a way to salvage it, but I feel like it is out of my control/out of my hands at this point and continuing to 'wait' for things to change is just plain frustrating. Some days are obviously worse than others.