Detachment

[25yearsmlc]

INCOMING TORPEDOS!!! Whew.

25,

I will respond on my own thread as to not hijack this one.

Kevin

Maybe this thread should be called "Detachment Derailers"...detachment and ways to avoid doing it...
Okay k4, speaking of torpedoes...
Ever, EVER think that maybe some of your posts feel like torpedoes to others? Ever wonder if maybe you are looking for religious debates and arguments where there aren't any? Ever notice that the lengthy scriptural quotes OFTEN derail good conversations & dialogue people were having--which means that discussions veer from helping others in a R problem, into a pseudo-theological debate with you? Ever read the book you promised, "Blue Like Jazz"? Wish you would, b/c it probes how to better use one's faith productively to bring people together, not to divide them or and push them farther apart. Regardless of intent, the long scriptural diatribes do not promote discussions here nearly as often as they end them, shutting people up, or pushing them farther away. Time to do something different.

Your wife has not enjoyed these types of talk from you and religion is a point of contention in your M. Think about that. It doesn't help that sitch either. Look, this isn't about rubbing your nose in it. There is a teaching point here if you can get your ego out of the way and just see it. And then do something different. This is NOT a theological debate. It just isn't.
Inserting religion into a discussion about detachment strikes me as looking for a debate in a place that needs clarity and something other than unrelated argument.
No matter how much you want it to be about faith, it's not. It's about changes in behavior and making new choices, and living your life very differently with REAL changes...it's about GAL that does not relate to DBing or getting your wife back, or merely filling your time between visits. (Could your faith help you in this? Sure, if you let it. But you have used your faith, somehow, to avoid GAL and detaching...)

As for the c comments...
You say you are now going to c, every other week for 1/2 hour or an hour. Great. Why do I question that??

B/C of your track record that's why. I can't enable you to pretend to forget that.Then I'm part of your cycle problem, wherein you cycle through the same behavior and post things here that you've posted before, and back slide and yet want "only positive encouragement"...to what end? To cheer you on when we see you go down the same road just weeks after doing it and just watch you "wreck the car" again, and say nothing? Oh, b/c we're supposed to "Only be positive"...if your d swings the golf club or baseball bat incorrectly and the coach shows her the right way, what would you tell her if she said she only wants you to cheer for her no matter how she holds the bat or even if she swings at bad pitches?
Just keep saying "Great swing! Maybe next time!" Or would you get her a session one on one with the coach and show her the patterns of low pitches she swings at and misses and the times she lets good pitches go by...would you prepare her for occasional bunting or just tell her to "keep swinging like you have been!!" even though she's got poor form and won't hit much with it??

Many urged you to get some c, and You promised long ago to do it, for you AND for your d's. Only you didn't do it...for a really long time, while letting us believe that the girls were getting c, and to a lesser extent letting us think you were as well. People were aghast about it for the kids b/c they clearly needed it even if you didn't want to pay for it or deal with it. And you forgot to tell us that you weren't taking them until 1) TONS more pleading from us your little girls sending out their flares into the universe, begging for help. When you really did make an appointment for you, you quit after one session b/c you judged the man to be too young/inexperienced for you AND you did not tell us that either, until we questioned you about how it was all going...

2) after agreeing to attend AA for months, you finally actually went ...(WHICH we had assumed was already happening cuz you let us assume that), and then you went to one AA meeting and quit, b/c you judged the people there to be beneath you, AND you did not tell us that either, until we asked you for weeks and weeks how AA was going....

So there's a track record here of you making promises to make change and then not following through, and misleading us about it, and not being honest about it. If your w left out things like this, would you describe her as being open and honest?

So forgive me if I'm not getting back onto the cheerleading squad quite so fast these days. I'd LOVE for robx or gucci to come in and show you the ropes b/c you admit you need help with the 'man up' department and they have lots of advice there. The cheerleading for the same old same old though, I think it enables you too much.

You could simply continue this way for decades. I've asked you if you are happy this way or miserable and even when you admit that of course you are not happy ...you won't do what it takes to get there.

You resist, using the old excuses and some new religious red herrings as arguments to stall and deflect. What really irks me is that you derail other people with that and since it has not worked for you either, I just wonder if you want others to follow suit to their detriment just to keep you company or what. Of course that's not your intent, but it is a consequence of that derailing. Think abou it. It just confuses people who are in a lot of pain.

Stalls their progress by arguing about "unconditional love" and that can lead to them "standing still" and just praying. The appeal of that? It means NO changing on our end...

but what Antlers, C-bart and others are trying to get across here is healthy behavior and boundaries. Just b/c sometimes you tell your d's they cannot have candy, does not mean that you don't love them. Sometimes detaching from or even breaking up with an abusive person, and DETACHING from them, is both good for you AND good for them, in the long run. But their welfare is NOT our first concern;our own survival is. People can't just treat anyone any way they feel like it and claim that you should put up with it "if you really loved them...". That's garbage.

If a WAS mistreats you, then detach and GAL and do all the rest. LATER ON IF there comes a time when they want back in AND they do the work, THEN bring out the issue of choosing to love them again, & trusting or forgiving and moving on without bringing up the past, etc and that will test unconditional love. What's to test now, when a WAS is with OP?

When a spouse is with OP, seems to me detaching saves your life/soul/heart. Pursuit in some sitches just kills your heart....K4, your wife has asked you strongly, to let her go and leave her alone. So, why won't you? Seriously.

Until your fear of detachment lessens or you finally learn what it truly means, seems you'll be posting here as a grandfather. I don't enjoy saying that. But as long as you refuse to Detach, you won't GAL or move on and that means, you'll be the same guy she left.

You have mentioned financial issues so often I assume it really is an issue for YOU...if so, what are you doing about improving your financial sitch?? I recalled you job hunting before, even after this temp job came up. Did you follow through on any of that? Are you making less money now than before you went to Florida?? Are you sure this is only an issue for your w? I get the feeling it bugs you as well, if not more).

When I say bring more to the table as a man, it's not a 6 figure salary that is mandatory. It's the confidence of a man who can provide for and protect his family, even if he needs some extra $$ help now and then...but if there's NO movement in ANY direction forward...then you are not bringing anything but your needs to the table.)

This is not what I'd wish for you; but hey, until you take full charge of your life, you'll choose to stay stuck. This is about choices YOU are making, not her. She isn't even in the equation anymore. You said once that you don't know how to take charge of your life, that you "never had to 'man up' in the past". Although I can't see how that's possible, I accept that you see your life this way. And therefore cannot hold HER responsible for where you are now.

As for AA, You don't disclose much you learned there and I don't recall you ever mentioning your sponsor. As a 12 stepper myself, I find that revealing. This lack of disclosure reveals a lot. I found myself awestruck by the miracles I saw in my 12 step work and the people I met there were Godsends. I mean that. I'm Absolutely sure they were miracles for me to witness and experience. And there are so many issues that overlap about resisting certain behaviors and avoiding certain triggers so we don't make the same mistakes that did so much damage to our lives in the past....any of this sound familiar?? See, 12 step programs and learning to detach DO relate...(Anyone up for saying the Serenity Prayer? It's ALL about detachment in its' own way!!)

Of course it's curious and disappointing to see the same mistakes made that i think good c and AA involvement would have prevented or at least lessened...& but Coupled with the apparent non-committal nature of your approach to c and AA, I see why you are still where you are. You can change. Drunks with 40 years of drinking, are sober today. And happy and often, [/i]iin good m's.

Doing a 12 step program was a life changing experience for me and for every single person I know who has completed it,. It's not a small thing. But alas, you have to stick with it for months in a good group YOU must find, to get it going and then it's a forever thing. While You talk about M "covenants" and keeping commitments, you seem unable to make/keep a promise, to do or attend something or to give it a real chance. How about that?

This is a hijack of sorts but it goes to the heart of detachment b/c most LBSers resist detachment with a dozen different ploys and ruses and excuses. Most people resist detachment due to fear of letting go, and loneliness.

Some of them even KNOW they are pushing the WAS further away in the long run by not detaching, but they're so starved/needy for ANY contact with the WAS that they think any is better than none. If only they could see how wrong they are. (read the db books again folks!! Read the success stories and what they did!)

Most will argue why THEIR situations are different and why detachment won't work in THEIR cases...."but I have to see her b/c of the kids so for ME it's different..." or "But I can't detach b/c whenever I see WAS, I simply must SAY something..even if it's bad..." "there's too much tension", "Just miss him/her so much" "just so lonely/ so angry" "don't understand." but I couldn't help it" and we've all been there.

K4, I think you throw in your religious discussions as a way of deflecting away from your own work, or from the detachment discussions to derail the way the conversations are going. Please don't do that. Learn more from this board than you have. Process what someone writes before posting right away again as if they never spoke. And let others do their own detachment / GAL work, without you looking for borderline comments as avenues for you to hurl a pseudo-theological argument/wrench into, (especially a thread on detachment!!).

Look, There are tons of sites even on this board, for people who want to wax poetic OR discuss the road to salvation and faith, and the religious implications of choices made. BUT I don't think it belongs here--

Detachment is among your biggest challenges. But Your approach to this situation has not included true detachment at all, as far as I can see. [[/b] So you can't claim it failed... You have pursued and manipulated and each "GAL" thing or "now I get it" has been a type of tactic either to get her or to get approval here. The role your faith could have played, if you had let it, would have been to detach and yet keep faith that God would protect you, not guarantee a reconciliation but yes, guarantee you peace and His love. Instead, you harped and argued with folks that your faith means that God will reunite you with your wife, sometime in the future. To you it seems like No other options exist for God's plan for you. You either get her back or you are alone all your life b/c that's what you say the bible says and what you say God means.

By implication, all the 2nd M's in the world (including the loving warm M and stepfather that CG discussed with you), are adulterous and all the stepdads are "pieces of s$^#"..(no judgement there k4, nope...perfectly loving. Even Unconditional love you might say...???), etc. You forget how offensive and hurtful your comments are when you play the victim but your self righteousness is a turn off to many here. I thought you were way off base with CG when you said that and you blew off a woman who has posted to you at length, the WHOLE time you've been on this site and who gets about a 5% answer rate from you....IOW, you answer about 1 in 20 of her comments/questions and do maybe none of what she suggests. When i asked how your approach was working in your sitch, I didn't mean your db approach. I don't see a DB approach. I just see your k4 approach.

Hopefully those who see themselves in the detachment quandary will get themselves out of it. Antlers, C-bart, to paraphrase what we said earlier, Detachment makes forgiveness much more possible, Detachment makes GAL possible, and not detaching makes GAL IMPossible so really folks, read up on it. There are many articles on this site about what it means so you don't have to debate "unconditional love" or semantics to know how to do it. It can be confusing when you are trying to "listen like a lover" and yet detach. Going dark is also a bit different, but it's a DB strategy. SOME of these things are mutually exclusive and some are not. Make sure you know which is which and the books are pretty clear so buy one so you can mark it up. The info is around here. For concrete examples either find them in the articles, get a session with a DB coach (SO worth it!!) or ask someone who is detaching, how they are doing it. Good luck,

((( j )))