Gucci and Robx...U 2 got a min. to weigh in???

[robx]

Grow a spine and start to stand up for yourself. It’s impossible to truly love yourself & draw self esteem from within if you are letting people walk all over you. Every time you let someone treat you badly your self esteem drops just a little bit.

[TooLateForMe]

I keep on wondering why my W doesn't want me. Your H sounds a lot like me. I'd like to think I'm not so bad, but the dynamic is so similar it's scary.

I keep pitying myself and expecting others to feel so sorry for me. I'm so angry w/ my W, but what choice did she have?

Maybe there's a way to get your H to realize what's going on w/out kicking him out. But I doubt it. I wish I weren't saying that, because I still want to believe my M can be saved.

One piece of advice: when you cut the string, really cut it. Mean it when you tell him to get out. It can't be a test. He'll yowl at your back door like a stray cat but be strong and ignore him.

Somewhere inside of your H is a good and decent man. But being human he will look for the easiest path to comfort. Right now that is you. And it's not your job to turn him into a man. It's his and you shouldn't accept being married to a boy.

[Super Girl]

And it's not your job to turn him into a man. It's his and you shouldn't accept being married to a boy.

I love this.

[ginab1966]

Gucci, Rob, Mark & Sadgirl:

Thanks so much for all the feedback. It was late when I wrote my post last night and re-reading it I just want to clarify some stuff. I'm not definding anyone or anything..just clarifying..

1. H does have a job and has always had a job with the exception of 3 weeke in the entire time we've been together. So, he does contribute money to the household. In fact, he pays the mortgage. However, if left to his own devices, he would spend (had has spent) OUR money as fast as we make it. I was once in my life in 32k worth of credit card debt that I dug out of so I can buy to sooth pain too but I no longer have that mentality..and haven't for a long time. H used to turn all of his paycheck over to me but now has a private account that I have no access to so that's changed. He came up short on mortgage this month and our/my account had to come up w/ the shortage.

2. I do make more money than he does but could never afford our home if he left. It would be foreclosed upon and I would go into single parenthood with bad credit. Single parenting (TRUE single parenting) scares the crap out of me and this is why I say that I couldn't make it financially without him. We can't sell house, we've tried. I did just modify our mortgage and it's helped some.

You are alllll very right. I know that I am in a relationship that is NOT working for me. It's demoralizing and undermining my self worth at every turn. I'm working so hard on self esteem issues and such but then I get sucked in and told that my husband wants to divorce me and because I don't have self esteem that's strong enough to handle that yet, I end up feeling sooo horrible about myself.

I have been in abusive relationships before one was psysical, the rest were emotional.

I'll tell you what the real issue is here.....I love him. When he is on proper meds and getting good clinical help, he is really wonderful. He is connected, fun, loving....but..when he's not, it's just, well, silly. He has this whole back story of being abandoned by dad, mom is psycho, lived int he projects, fought his way out without drug addiction, only kid in family to not be on welfare and grad. high school, etc. There is so much that I admire about him. I do my best to try to seperate his behavior that are driven my his mental state and the person he is. I also know that I can't save him and if he doesn't want proper help, there is really nothing I can do.

I do have issues with divorce. Not for me...but for my child. I am convinced her life will be "less than" because of it. I've read to much, seen too much. I watched and saw what it did to her when we left for the month in May/June. I am torn between what I know I deserve and putting her through that pain again. I think about tonight and how next Halloween one of us will be without us but more importantly SHE will be without one of us...and none of that is her fault. She didn't chose any of this. We broght her into this world and I feel like it's my job to do the best I can to give her a stable home. But I also know I'm not modeling a loving relationship for her either.

I know it makes no sense to you guys why I would want to save this marriage. And the truth is that there is so much of me that wants it to just end....but I'm certain that is NOT what my daughter would want.

I know I deserve better. Believe it or not, I haven't been able to always say that with certainty. I've recently (over the past 3 years) lost over 100lbs and have 56 more to go to goal. My weight has contributed heavily (no pun intended) to how I allow myself to be treated.

I love what Gucci wrote about what I need to say to H. As I was reading it I felt this surge of something inside of me like a Norma Rae moment...and then I imagined my daughter coming home to a house that doesn't include a dad and it tears me up. God, I wish I was strong enough to do what I need to do. Maybe the key is to keep doing what I'm doing...keep going to CoDA, keep going to therapy and dig into the deep stuff that keeps me a slave to my own distructive thinking.

The way I see it, my husband is not to blame for the way I feel. I am. If I had balls, I would've never married him in the first place. If I was emotionally healthy enough, I wouldn't be trying to save a marriage to a boy who believe I'm optional in his life. I don't deserve to be optional in anyones life. I'm such a good woman with so much to offer someone. I deserve to be thought of and cherished and cared for as a partner that is respected. NONE of that is happening right now. I justify it all because for the most part, we don't argue and he's not overtly hostile, rude or mean. But it's always there...the knowledge that he feels I'm not "it" and never going to be "it". It can numb me at times.

You guys are so spot on in your analysis and I really appreciate what all of you had to say....even though some of it hurt to read. What hurt the worse is to read the recap and know if my daughter was living like this..or a friend..I would bodily carry them out. I need to love myself enough to give myself the gift of freedom.

Gina B

[Looking_For_Help]

Just checking in Gina...I'm happy to see you getting the 2x4s from Gucci and RobX. I was being metaphorical by saying your husband needed tough love. These guys are good...listen to them. I need to ask these guys for help in my situation as well!

Good luck,
LFH

[ginab1966]

Hi you ...look at you all checkin in on me and stuff. Boy, that's so sweet and means more to me than you know. Yup..they're givin it to me like I like it....real. I'm one of those people who are self aware enough to deal with truth but I'm damaged enough to need someone to LITERALLY hit me with a 2 x 4 to get the message through that I'm worth so much more than the pain that I endure in my relationships. Ya know, when I WAW from my H in May I told my mom that is was because I was watching my marriage turning into my mom and dad's marriage (highly disfunctional, 53 years). I told her that I learned so much unhealthy stuff watching her martar herself and eat crap her whole married life for a man who never, ever deserved her. But she stayed so we would have one home, one family and I do understand. BUT...I was not going to risk my daugther ending up like me. I told my mother..."It stops with me. This cycle STOPS WITH ME." Then I listened to my 4 year old crying every night for her Daddy and having night terrors and begging me for us to go home. It is/was so difficult to find the balance between what's good for her and what's good for me.

If I just had a crystal ball that showed that she would be ok. I went out to dinner the other night with a woman that told me she was 4 when her father left the house and she came home and all her Daddy's things were gone and she still remembers running from room to room yelling for him and asking her mom where his things where. She said that she remembers that moment like it was yesterday. Her home was chaotic and at times violent and she would rather live the rest of her life in THAT situation than the first 6 months of that divorce. She says it scared her for life. My neice remembers running after her step fathers car as it drove out the driveway when her mom kicked him out. She was 6 and said she laid in the driveway crying. I know those are two horror stories but how can I do that to my child. I am so mad at my husband for making me have to possibly make that choice. To risk my daughters happiness to save my own. And I'm so mad that he says he's going to divorce me anyway...someday. This would be a no brainer if it wasn't for her.

Thanks for checkin in on me and pointing me towards the "big kahoona's"

Gina B

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I love what Gucci wrote about what I need to say to H. As I was reading it I felt this surge of something inside of me like a Norma Rae moment...and then I imagined my daughter coming home to a house that doesn't include a dad and it tears me up. God, I wish I was strong enough to do what I need to do.

You are. And -- as it works -- you will begin to gain ADDITIONAL strength and resolve.

Promise!

Puppy

[oldtimer]

Gina,

It sounds like you are back to looking for a plan to fix H. Instead, this should be your plan: STOP trying to fix H. You are not his parent. You are not his therapist. You aren't even friends right now. Back off and quit trying to control the situation by controlling him. Instead, focus on making things work for you.

HOW TO RESPOND
I suggest that you detach and respond to him with compassion and respect. RESPECT him by believing what he says. Don't belittle his feelings by dismissing them for whatever reasons you come up with at the time for believing what you want rather than what he is telling you. THE M IS NOT WORKING FOR HIM. HE HAS NO INTENTION OF STAYING MARRIED TO YOU. This may or may not change. Right now, it is where he is. When he tells you how he feels, you hear it in terms of how it affects you, how it is different from what you want to hear, how to get him to say what you want to hear... It is all about you. Detach. If you ask him about his feelings, then it should be about him. Right now, you can't even see, acknowledge his pain, or offer comfort or support to him because you are making it all about you.

Try this. Detach. Make the emotional space for you to really SEE HIM and HEAR HIM: "Wow H, that sounds so very painful. It must be so hard for you. It must hurt sooo much to feel that way when you think of your wedding day. I am sorry to hear that you are in so much pain." Then, accept that his feelings are exactly what he told you they are.

RESPECT
Your M doesn't have a chance in hell as long as you continue to treat H and view H with so little respect. You are hurting everyone by treating H like a child. You have to allow space for H to be a man in your R. This means you have to treat him like an adult with real responsibilities. Will he live up to those responsibilities? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But the answer will always be no as long as you commandeer all his responsibilities.


YOUR AFFAIR
You seem a little too dismissive of your A and your frequent lying associated with it. Try to get a bit more real with yourself here.


FINANCIALLY
If you get divorced, it won't matter that his current new debt is "his own." Legally, it isn't. It is yours too. I strongly suggest that you separate financially legally. Split the debt--legally, take him off your credit cards, figure out spousal and child support. Make sure his continued spending STOPS affecting your bottom line. Right now, his excesses continue to affect you. Make them none of your business by separating from him financially.

LIVING ARRANGEMENTS
The truth is, you can figure out a way for H to move out. You lived separately before, you can do it again. In the meantime, you both need to have your own space if you aren't sharing your bedroom. Surely there is a place for H to set up a bedroom that is more appropriate than the LR?

SEX
Don't have any sex with H but safe sex. This means zero sex without a condom, including oral sex. You both need to be tested. And, beware that condoms will not protect you from herpes. Clearly, H is concerned about using you for sex, which is one reason why he keeps reminding you that he is not committed to you or the M. I'd say that odds are 99% that he is involved sexually with one or more real or virtual OWs. His pissiness and withdrawal after a period of great sex is probably mostly about his guilt about his renewed sexual interactions with these OWs (to create distance from you), and the crappy way he feels about himself as a result. The point: his sh*tty treatment of you is about HIM, not you.

I'd also suggest you stop sex unless you are satisfied with friends w/benefits. That is what he is offering. You either accept it as that and quit trying to make it into something more, or quit accepting it. If I were you, I'd stop doing something that makes me feel like crap: "Sorry H, I'm really horny and would love to have some hot sex, but I'll wait for a committed monogamous romantic R for that, thanks anyway."

YOUR M
Get a bit more real about your M with yourself. You report that you were happy for a few months during your M when H was on certain meds. You call H during that time the "real H." But H at other times is just as real. It is his choice what meds to use. Why be married to someone if you want him to be someone else?

YOURSELF
You really are doing great in your life, physically and emotionally you have made enormous progress in becoming a happy healthy person. Whenever you feel like a victim, look at the choices you are making to put yourself in that position. Then, change your choices or acknowledge that the consequences are yours to own. You aren't the victim here. You know that H is lying, that he is very likely still involved with OW(s), that he is not considering staying M to you as an option. IT IS YOUR CHOICE to continue to live with him under these conditions. I understand your reasons for doing so, but it still remains YOUR CHOICE.

TIME
This is all very, very, very new. You are trying to rush to the other side, one way or the other. It won't work. You can push through a D next week and all the same stuff will remain unresolved. SLOOOOOOWWWWW DOWN. This is a new month. The whole month, focus only on making life peaceful for yourself. Schedule the whole month in terms of who is on childcare so that you don't have that as a daily stressor. Get H sleeping somewhere other than the main living area, which isn't fair to anyone. Lose an extra 2 pounds before thanksgiving. Focus on you. Read "Reinventing your Life." And, most important, give H much more space than he wants, for both your sakes. BACK OFF. WAY OFF. EVEN FURTHER.

RETROUVAILLE
Keep an open mind and accept what your H says with compassion for him as a human being in extraordinary pain. Don't make it about you. And, share yourself authentically, or don't bother going.
----
Gina, you really are doing astonishingly well. You don't see it, but I've been posting here for 7+ years. You have come very far, very quickly. You are incredibly strong, smart, and loving. Treat yourself well. And maybe move to "We're" Separated" or "Infidelity." Time to step away from the high drama, and fresh searing pain of the newbies. No matter how this turns out, it will be an emotional struggle for at least a couple of years. You can do things to keep from getting stuck, but you can't jump from where you are to where you want to be without the long hard trip in between.

So, stop looking for the magic bullit. There isn't one. I promise. But, in looking at how far you have come already, I know you will end up in a great place, better than you could imagine. But quit trying to see now where that future place will be. It is a waste of time, no one can see such a distant future.

Final recommendation: Go to Blockbuster and get the new Tinkerbell movie to watch with DD. We just watched it last night -- loved it :-)

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Gina,

It sounds like you are back to looking for a plan to fix H. Instead, this should be your plan: STOP trying to fix H. You are not his parent. You are not his therapist. You aren't even friends right now. Back off and quit trying to control the situation by controlling him. Instead, focus on making things work for you.

HOW TO RESPOND
I suggest that you detach and respond to him with compassion and respect. RESPECT him by believing what he says. Don't belittle his feelings by dismissing them for whatever reasons you come up with at the time for believing what you want rather than what he is telling you. THE M IS NOT WORKING FOR HIM. HE HAS NO INTENTION OF STAYING MARRIED TO YOU. This may or may not change. Right now, it is where he is. When he tells you how he feels, you hear it in terms of how it affects you, how it is different from what you want to hear, how to get him to say what you want to hear... It is all about you. Detach. If you ask him about his feelings, then it should be about him. Right now, you can't even see, acknowledge his pain, or offer comfort or support to him because you are making it all about you.

Try this. Detach. Make the emotional space for you to really SEE HIM and HEAR HIM: "Wow H, that sounds so very painful. It must be so hard for you. It must hurt sooo much to feel that way when you think of your wedding day. I am sorry to hear that you are in so much pain." Then, accept that his feelings are exactly what he told you they are.

RESPECT
Your M doesn't have a chance in hell as long as you continue to treat H and view H with so little respect. You are hurting everyone by treating H like a child. You have to allow space for H to be a man in your R. This means you have to treat him like an adult with real responsibilities. Will he live up to those responsibilities? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But the answer will always be no as long as you commandeer all his responsibilities.


YOUR AFFAIR
You seem a little too dismissive of your A and your frequent lying associated with it. Try to get a bit more real with yourself here.


FINANCIALLY
If you get divorced, it won't matter that his current new debt is "his own." Legally, it isn't. It is yours too. I strongly suggest that you separate financially legally. Split the debt--legally, take him off your credit cards, figure out spousal and child support. Make sure his continued spending STOPS affecting your bottom line. Right now, his excesses continue to affect you. Make them none of your business by separating from him financially.

LIVING ARRANGEMENTS
The truth is, you can figure out a way for H to move out. You lived separately before, you can do it again. In the meantime, you both need to have your own space if you aren't sharing your bedroom. Surely there is a place for H to set up a bedroom that is more appropriate than the LR?

SEX
Don't have any sex with H but safe sex. This means zero sex without a condom, including oral sex. You both need to be tested. And, beware that condoms will not protect you from herpes. Clearly, H is concerned about using you for sex, which is one reason why he keeps reminding you that he is not committed to you or the M. I'd say that odds are 99% that he is involved sexually with one or more real or virtual OWs. His pissiness and withdrawal after a period of great sex is probably mostly about his guilt about his renewed sexual interactions with these OWs (to create distance from you), and the crappy way he feels about himself as a result. The point: his sh*tty treatment of you is about HIM, not you.

I'd also suggest you stop sex unless you are satisfied with friends w/benefits. That is what he is offering. You either accept it as that and quit trying to make it into something more, or quit accepting it. If I were you, I'd stop doing something that makes me feel like crap: "Sorry H, I'm really horny and would love to have some hot sex, but I'll wait for a committed monogamous romantic R for that, thanks anyway."

YOUR M
Get a bit more real about your M with yourself. You report that you were happy for a few months during your M when H was on certain meds. You call H during that time the "real H." But H at other times is just as real. It is his choice what meds to use. Why be married to someone if you want him to be someone else?

YOURSELF
You really are doing great in your life, physically and emotionally you have made enormous progress in becoming a happy healthy person. Whenever you feel like a victim, look at the choices you are making to put yourself in that position. Then, change your choices or acknowledge that the consequences are yours to own. You aren't the victim here. You know that H is lying, that he is very likely still involved with OW(s), that he is not considering staying M to you as an option. IT IS YOUR CHOICE to continue to live with him under these conditions. I understand your reasons for doing so, but it still remains YOUR CHOICE.

TIME
This is all very, very, very new. You are trying to rush to the other side, one way or the other. It won't work. You can push through a D next week and all the same stuff will remain unresolved. SLOOOOOOWWWWW DOWN. This is a new month. The whole month, focus only on making life peaceful for yourself. Schedule the whole month in terms of who is on childcare so that you don't have that as a daily stressor. Get H sleeping somewhere other than the main living area, which isn't fair to anyone. Lose an extra 2 pounds before thanksgiving. Focus on you. Read "Reinventing your Life." And, most important, give H much more space than he wants, for both your sakes. BACK OFF. WAY OFF. EVEN FURTHER.

RETROUVAILLE
Keep an open mind and accept what your H says with compassion for him as a human being in extraordinary pain. Don't make it about you. And, share yourself authentically, or don't bother going.
----
Gina, you really are doing astonishingly well. You don't see it, but I've been posting here for 7+ years. You have come very far, very quickly. You are incredibly strong, smart, and loving. Treat yourself well. And maybe move to "We're" Separated" or "Infidelity." Time to step away from the high drama, and fresh searing pain of the newbies. No matter how this turns out, it will be an emotional struggle for at least a couple of years. You can do things to keep from getting stuck, but you can't jump from where you are to where you want to be without the long hard trip in between.

So, stop looking for the magic bullit. There isn't one. I promise. But, in looking at how far you have come already, I know you will end up in a great place, better than you could imagine. But quit trying to see now where that future place will be. It is a waste of time, no one can see such a distant future.

Final recommendation: Go to Blockbuster and get the new Tinkerbell movie to watch with DD. We just watched it last night -- loved it :-)

[ginab1966]

Well look to came over here to check up on me!!! Hello there my straight shootin’ buddy. Sooo good to see you here.

Thanks, as always, for such a great reply to my insanity. You’re words just sooth me for some reason. I don’t know how to do that “quote” thing you all do so I’m just going to use the headings to respond to things:

Retro: We already went last month and it didn’t go well. Well, it went well while we were there. He was holding my hand and very physical and loving towards me. He even cried. I let it all out. I held nothing back and said things that were very scary and hard to say. We had a wonderful ride home and the moment we got to his sisters house to pick up our daughter….I saw him shift. It was visable. The happy, fun person just left and he got quieter and more withdrawn. He ended up deciding not to go to the post sessions and ended dialoging with me after he shared his feeling about our wedding day.

Respect: No, you are right, I don’t respect him. He knows it. I told him that I don’t except him just the way he is and I wrote about it at length in a dialog during Retro. He also doesn’t except me and wrote about it at Retro. We agree that we have to find a way to love each other unconditionally despite our “issues” with each other or the marriage has no chance in surviving. Respect is a big issue for me anyway. Although I am embarrassed to admit it, I judge people pretty harshly. I have this sort of ruler that I measure people to and if you don’t meet it, I have a hard time respecting you. I hold myself to the same ruler though and perhaps this is why I have so much self-loathing. For me it’s very difficult to respect/accept my H’s feelings of leaving this marriage. I know when I WAW, it became increasingly difficult to respect myself and that’s one of the reason’s that I went back. That said, I cannot minimize the effect that my disrespect of him has on him. It’s just so hard to be respectful of someones feelings when they are saying “Gina, I don’t love you, I don’t want to be married to you, you make me unhappy, our marriage makes me unhappy”. It’s so painful to hear and, although I know you don’t agree with this, it’s my opinion much of his unhappiness is not about me or the marriage…it’s internal and deep and childhood related and depression related. This isn’t me trying to fix, diagnose him…this is what we’ve been told my his individual therapist and 2 marriage counselors. Yet, he’s pawning it off on me and believing it’s me and I have a hard time respecting that. I have to get through my thick head that it doesn’t matter what the origin of the sadness/pain is for him…..it is what it is and THAT’s what I have to respect.

Affair: I have done a great deal of soul searching about my A. It was never a PA and only an EA but I know the damage that it did to him. H has told me that I was the one he always thought he could count on to be honest with him and never deal him dirty….and I did….and the pain I feel over that is monumental. Although I may not talk about it a lot on the boards, I am and have dealt with the seriousness of this issue.

Financial: I have taken steps that have separated us as much as possible. Since we have a divorce settlement all drawn up and at the mediator, that’s taken care of. In the meantime, I’ve just taken matters into my own hands and done what needs to be done. Although the mediator made him see how unfair he was being, he didn’t want to pay child support or take any of the debt. She said even though we both created it, it was in my name so end of story. Mediator and I didn’t see it that way at all and the debt is split in the divorce settlement. The thing that really needs to change is my behavior towards/of him in regards to family funds. His paycheck goes directly into an account I have no control over, he gives me his budget money that pays for mortgage and the rest is his to do with what he will. He will not budge on that arrangement. He will not give me more, I will not take less. My paycheck pays for all the rest of the bills, food and savings. That account is in both of our names. This has now changed and only I have access to it. The one thing that I have to do next is to tell him that he has no “choice” in how much he will pay towards mortgage. He will have to give me the whole amount of the mortgage and guarantee it being there with a direct deposit from his pay. I still haven’t found the strength to have that conversation yet. It’s going to be a HUGE argument and when he comes at me I tend to just shut down and roll over. I am feeling very very strong today however and I may try to have that convo tonight or, at least this week.

Living arrangements: We are sleeping in the same bed and have been for over a month. There is another bedroom that one of us can occupy but I’m finding that a hard decision as well because of DD freaking out the last time we were in separate rooms. But lets be real, this is more about me wanting to feel him next to me than my daughter. I am slowly getting there…but not there yet.

Sex: You are right on all accounts. I didn’t have a PA but was tested and I’m clean. He says he doesn’t need to get tested as the PA didn’t go that far. I have decided that there will be no sex and your line is just so wonderful and direct. I haven’t had a chance to use it yet..but you never know.

Marriage & me: This is the most honest I can be about my marriage. I love being a wife. I don’t love being his wife when he’s acting like an *ss. I love being a couple and knowing there is someone “there”. My feelings of marriage are deeply rooted in my co-dependency. I know that I have come sooo far with my own growth in all of this. I was telling someone on the boards that the pain…the really bad pain….has sort of re-built me in a sense. I grow stronger from the moments that I think I cannot breath through. I get through them every time. There’s character in that…there’s growth in that…there’s God’s grace in that. Thanks for telling me I’m doing a good job. I don’t feel like it..not at all. I feel like I’m failing, like I’m coming apart, like I’m weak and unfixable. His rejection of me is like my flesh tearing from my bones. BUT…I have survived and I have grown and I’m not dead…and I’m so infinitely proud of that. Thanks for reminding me.

Time and Tinkerbell: Time does heal and I know it’s true. I have my issues, as you and I know, with just wanting the answer and the ending and the pain to stop. It’s a journey and I have to stop and just be and sit in the pain and let the pain wash over me and heal me instead of wishing it way and trying to outrun it. It doesn’t work and it’s tiring. Victoria loves Tink….I will absolutely get it and watch it with her. It’s a full moon, H is completely shut down and depressed and I can’t think of a better distraction. Thanks so much for the tip!! Actually, thanks for all of it.

I love that you said it's a new month. I am going to try and look at the next 30 days in terms of me and not him. I told my therapist that one of my goals is to not start a session with my husbands name after she says "So, how are you?" H should not even be in the response to that question. I should be...and I haven't quite gotten there.

Peace...Gina B