Because of a sex starved marriage among other things. My W has decided she wants a divorce. She announced this to me on 8-15-03 when I lost my job. At that time, I didn’t have a clue what a sex starved marriage could do to a woman until I watched 20/20. I came to the site and read some bullet points that describe my wife to the tee.
She often questions her looks and is depressed. She has said mean things to me in the past before her announcement. Of course, she has pulled/pushed away from me and built walls to secure her heart and feelings. Or marriage got this way because of my anger towards her for certain poor financial decisions she has made.
My question to you guys is this. Do you have any suggestions I can use to get my wife to reconsider her decision? I’ve read DB & DR a couple times now. I’m working on my 180 changes and I think/know she has noticed the changes. The kids have.
Quote: Because of a sex starved marriage among other things. My W has decided she wants a divorce. She announced this to me on 8-15-03 when I lost my job.
She often questions her looks and is depressed. She has said mean things to me in the past before her announcement. Of course, she has pulled/pushed away from me and built walls to secure her heart and feelings. Or marriage got this way because of my anger towards her for certain poor financial decisions she has made.
My question to you guys is this. Do you have any suggestions I can use to get my wife to reconsider her decision? I’ve read DB & DR a couple times now. I’m working on my 180 changes and I think/know she has noticed the changes. The kids have.
Any help would be appreciated.
I too am a member of an asexual, SSM, so can relate on that level. I have been the avoidant, passive-aggressive member for many years, but am now committed to changing those patterns.
What has happened since her announcement in mid-August? It sound like you're working hard on changing your patterns--only positives will come from that. I'm concerned that you're taking all the responsibility for the current state of marital affairs. Take ownership of your poor use of anger, and choice of words, but not for the entire state of the marriage. It's probably more complicated than simply your anger problems.
I can understand your fear, but you will have to manage it and stay focused on the present. Fear makes us want to cling to our spouses, and lose our center. Stay focused on self-care, maintaining connection to your wife to the extent that she will allow, yet still prepare for/don't be in denial about a possible divorce scenario. Other members on the forum who have been through a divorce can be more helpful than me on legal and practical matters, as my situation is a wife who's been "dark" for two months.
Concerned_Listener
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
I too am a member of an asexual, SSM, so can relate on that level. I have been the avoidant, passive-aggressive member for many years, but am now committed to changing those patterns.
What has happened since her announcement in mid-August? It sound like you're working hard on changing your patterns--only positives will come from that. I'm concerned that you're taking all the responsibility for the current state of marital affairs. Take ownership of your poor use of anger, and choice of words, but not for the entire state of the marriage. It's probably more complicated than simply your anger problems.
I can understand your fear, but you will have to manage it and stay focused on the present. Fear makes us want to cling to our spouses, and lose our center. Stay focused on self-care, maintaining connection to your wife to the extent that she will allow, yet still prepare for/don't be in denial about a possible divorce scenario. Other members on the forum who have been through a divorce can be more helpful than me on legal and practical matters, as my situation is a wife who's been "dark" for two months.
Concerned_Listener
There have been a few developments since I first posted. We were talking and I mentioned that 20/20 show. I think she was on the couch listening although she appeared to be sleep. I told her of the symptoms of a person in a ssm. She agreed with most all of them including building a wall to protect herself from rejection, shut down emotionally, she questions her beauty and has said she had considered an affair.
Not much more came of that convesation other than I told her I think I know how she feels. The other day, we had a fight and I back slid a little bit. In that fight, she mentioned that I had never paid attention to one of her breasts. She had a minor op to remove something a few years ago and it left a little dimple. I simply told her that didn't matter to me as I'm a leg man anyway. She then got mad and told me I have never truly apologized to her for hurting her. This hurt was caused by our lack of intimacy for about a year. During this period, she was told by her friends ole Blackrook must be cheating.
I wish I knew a way to apologize that would reach her. Her statement makes me feel as if she's been waiting for me to apologize to her. I don't try to defend myself (e.g. I stopped taking my anti depresants). Any ideas on a true apology. Sometime I think if I could prove my remorse by jumping off the roof, I would.
She agreed with most all of them including building a wall to protect herself from rejection, shut down emotionally, she questions her beauty and has said she had considered an affair.
Not much more came of that convesation other than I told her I think I know how she feels. She then got mad and told me I have never truly apologized to her for hurting her. This hurt was caused by our lack of intimacy for about a year. During this period, she was told by her friends ole Blackrook must be cheating.
I wish I knew a way to apologize that would reach her. Her statement makes me feel as if she's been waiting for me to apologize to her. I don't try to defend myself (e.g. I stopped taking my anti depresants). Any ideas on a true apology. Sometime I think if I could prove my remorse by jumping off the roof, I would.
I think one of the more difficult aspects of making positive changes, is dealing with the repercussions of the maladaptive actions we've made in the past. I'm ready to move past passive-aggression, yet my wife is miles away. Who knows what the state of the marriage will be when she returns?
In your case, I don't think it's a matter of saying the right words, and getting instant results. I can see you feel remorse for your past words and deeds. However, you did inflict pain on your wife, and must experience consequences for that.
I also am learning to manage fear. You experience fear because of her requesting a divorce, and failure to respond to your apologies. I am currently reading P. Chodron (1997) When Things are Falling Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times. One must be open to Buddhism to read this book. I'm trying to practice a few ideas, related to coping with fear. The first is that courage comes from becoming intimate with fear versus trying to escape, suppress, act-out or deny it. The second idea is that we have to be willing to die--give-up who we used to be, or what our marriages or partners used to be.
This means that I must be willing to have uncomfortable conversations about sex if we're going to resolve this conflict, have sex even when I'm not always in the mood, provide feedback so that my sexual needs are more met, be careful of all words that leave my mouth, so that none inflict pain because of my failure to manage my own emotions, and to increase compassion for myself--be socially active, physical exercise, forgive myself for past errors.
If I do these things, I grow as a person, increase my happiness, stay engaged with life, and create a climate for myself and the marriage to evolve and tranform beyond maladaptive thoughts, words and deeds of the past.
I hope this helps. I have not given you specific advice on providing an apology, because I think you need a broader set of goals.
Concerned_Listener
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
I reckon you're right. I should know that if I apologize that she won't come running back in Blackrook's arms hugging and kissing just like on her favorite show Friends. I can only hope. There's a scene from a movie called Raising Arizona where the wife said she didn't want her man again. He goes to sleep and dreams of him and her old with a bunch of children and grandchildren all around them and knew it would be ok. Well, I had a dream that I was doing taxes. I looked at the form dated 2-12-06 and notice my name and my w and we filed married.
I will still have to think of a way to get through to her and aknowledge the hurt that I caused. I just don't have a clue right now as to how to do that. OVer the past few days, I've begun to face my sorrow and guilt over this situation and it's hard. I do my best thinking either flying or driving. I haven't flown in awhile so I drive with the radio off. I've done some reflection and know what I've done, 98% not intentionally has damaged her once open heart.
I will learn how to face my fears too. I guess the worst thing she can do is D me, she can't eat me. The law won't allow that. The thought of a D hurts like heck. Another think I'll have to deal with.
Blackrook, I can only tell you what would (and did) work with me; I make no claims to its efficacy towards your wife!
My husband lost a lot of his interest in me and, unfortunately, did not even miss it enough to do or say anything about it. I was the one who had to bring it up, suggest a plan of action, stay "on top" of it and not allow us to backslide, keep the R and sex talks going, all this for over a year! It was/is exhausting but the results are that we are finally getting back on track. It is a wonderful and exhilarating feeling.
Now back to your apology question. There really are not enough words in the English (or any other) language to properly make up for sexually rejecting someone. Seriously, words will NOT do it. The only thing that filled that gaping hole in the middle of my chest was action. I needed to see action from him, and pronto. Yes, he had to move out of his warm little comfort zone and move over into my world.
After about 6-8 months of increased frequency combined with lusty looks, comments and just a general appreciation of me as a WOMAN (not a friend or companion) started to melt the icy wall that I had built around myself.
If lack of sex has caused your rift, it only stands to reason that she is going to need to see some serious efforts in this area before she even considers staying. I don't know the particulars of your situation and I hope that it hasn't gotten to the point that she refuses any affection from you.
So, that's my answer. Sexual attention. Not hugs and pecks and cuddles, but sexual attention. That was the only thing that made me realize that he was serious about keeping me. He did something that was exceedingly hard for him (stepping outside the comfort zone) and you know what? He likes it! He is good at it! He is as surprised about that as me...I didn't expect that he would enjoy it, I really anticipated that he would do it 'for me', ya know?
We are currently enjoying a great period of our marriage. He has made lasting changes and proved to me that his love and desire are real--something that words alone could never have done.
Thanks Honeypot. On D annoucement day, my W gave a list of things that need to happen. One of those things was there was to be no physical contact. I've sneaked in hugs a couple times. I think I'm up against the wall here. She doesn't seem to want it anymore from me. But on the other hand, one of her male friends told her I would be trying to get intimate with her anyway. "This is what guys do" he said.
I'm not sure why she told me that. I respect her wishes and don't try, but I wonder based on what she told me, is this further rejection that solidifies her resolve. I don't know if I should try and get rejected.
I'm sooo confused. If I make a move, she may get mad. If I don't she will think that I don't think of her as a woman. Her self esteem is at an all time low. She has told me that everything she touches turns to dust and she needs to find out why she can't satisfy her husband.
I don't think she will really refuse affection, it surprises her to be honest. I'm not a hugger but I've turned into one lately. I think she doesn't want physical contact such as kissing and such because it may distract her from her mission. A couple days before D day we were very intimate. She said she hadn't... well you know... like that in a long time. I need to find a way to get the affection back.
Let me see if I've got this right, blackrook. The list your W gave you when she told you she wanted a D was a list based on the idea that she didn't want to get back together. She's not on the same page as you are, right now, about wanting to get back together. Have I read your situation correctly?
If I have, I can definitely see why you'd be very confused. You have information from her about what you need to do when the goal is divorce. You don't have information from her about what you need to do for her to feel your apology and desire to make things better is sincere. You're having to speculate, guess, rely on what others think. (A terrific recipe for confusion!)
My favorite approach for dealing with confusion is direct, clear communication. Apologize and ask her what would make it better. She may need time to think about what would make it better, if she's even willing to do that. Give her time to figure it out if she is willing. If she does give you clear communication of what will make it better, then do it. And that is pretty much where your control over the situation ends. Forgiveness, not wanting to hurt anymore and wanting to heal, not holding it over you...that is stuff she is in charge of.
Alternatively, if the direct communication route just isn't an option right now...court your W. Act as if your wife is a woman you've just seen across a room and can't keep your thoughts off of. What would you do to get that woman in your life? Chances are hugging, kissing, etc. wouldn't be your first approach, right?
Quote: Let me see if I've got this right, blackrook. The list your W gave you when she told you she wanted a D was a list based on the idea that she didn't want to get back together. She's not on the same page as you are, right now, about wanting to get back together. Have I read your situation correctly?
If I have, I can definitely see why you'd be very confused. You have information from her about what you need to do when the goal is divorce. You don't have information from her about what you need to do for her to feel your apology and desire to make things better is sincere. You're having to speculate, guess, rely on what others think. (A terrific recipe for confusion!)
My favorite approach for dealing with confusion is direct, clear communication. Apologize and ask her what would make it better. She may need time to think about what would make it better, if she's even willing to do that. Give her time to figure it out if she is willing. If she does give you clear communication of what will make it better, then do it. And that is pretty much where your control over the situation ends. Forgiveness, not wanting to hurt anymore and wanting to heal, not holding it over you...that is stuff she is in charge of.
Alternatively, if the direct communication route just isn't an option right now...court your W. Act as if your wife is a woman you've just seen across a room and can't keep your thoughts off of. What would you do to get that woman in your life? Chances are hugging, kissing, etc. wouldn't be your first approach, right?
Just some suggestions, as always.
MPT
I may try the courting suggestion. Along with her statement that I haven't apologized for hurting her, she also said the I don't change. She says I change for 2 weeks and back slide. This is true and I'm working on it. In her list she also wanted me to work more with the kids and cut out the cable modem. During my depression last year, I kind of let things slip with checking homework and what not. This showed in the grades. This year, I'm back on the case and the grades are sky high.
I think I will also try the direct apology as well and see where it goes. I am truly sorry for my part in the hurt. Sometimes, I think this is a big test for me. I'm trying not to flunk it. One of the kids said mommy is changing her mind but she wants you to suffer. The other kid said that he also thought mommy was changing her mind. Out of the mouths of babes. I hope they know what they're talking about. I'm working on my 180. I guess part of that can be to go back to the way we used to be as far as intimacy is concerned.
It will be hard to crack her shields however. I guess it took a year to get here, I shouldn't expect too much too soon.
Hey Blackie, you wanna know what would have worked on me? Well, I don't know if I would have let it SHOW that it was working but you can be darn sure that I would have replayed these words over and over in my head.
I think you should say something to her like this: "I know you told me not to touch you, but I want you to know that this is driving me crazy. You are so beautiful to me, I just want to be close to you. It drives me crazy to see you so beautiful and not make love to you. I think I finally realize the torture that I put you through--it is awful to see something that you want SO bad and not be able to have it. I'm truly sorry for ever rejecting you...a man would have to be crazy to say no to this (touching her lovingly)."
Ok, a little corny but that is what I wanted and needed to hear from H. People with an HD need to know they are desired. Either from hearing it, seeing it in their partner's eyes, reading a sexy love letter, anything to know that they still 'got it', LOL. Find some way to show her that you desire her. If she won't let you touch her, then give her a whistle one day when she's looking hot. Write her a note to find in the morning that says "you looked so sexy last night, I'll be thinking of you today". I don't know if these things will work for your situation or not, but just trying to get some ideas flowing. Do SOMETHING to show her that you think she's desirable. If that was a major sticking point and cause for the divorce proceedings, then I would think that you'd have to show her that this is going to be different before she'd commit to giving it a second try.
Good luck, it sounds like you are making progress!
