Problems after the affair...Rebuilding

[whatdidido]

OK, and he when he asks what he said do I go into that? I don't tell him where he works, correct?

[DanceQueen]

wdid...Aside from the OM phone call issue (which you are dealing with well, I think, by planning to tell him)...I wonder if you can't start a new dialog with H about the sex...I have gathered that you maybe have had the sex discussions with him in previous years, trying to ask him why he doesn't "want you", etc. Correct? I am just curious how any of those discussions turned out. Seems to me that sex is important to you and you have felt unloved and closed off from your H in that department for your entire marriage. That rings a bit close to home for me...

If you recall, I was married for 15 years in a mostly SSM. I cheated once at our 4 year mark, confessed it all to him, we tried to move forward. But eventually, since we never dealt with the SSM issues, they came creeping back and once again I was restless, empty, and searching for something to "wake me up". The SSM was painful for me, and my H could never quite take any responsibility for his share in our problems. I realize now that I have sex addiction issues, and I take all responsibility for my actions. However, I also know now in my current relationship, that I can easily manage my addiction issues within a happy, monogomous relationship. Therefore, I know now that my ex-H and I could have fixed things...but I could not do his part for him. Eventually I cheated on my ex-h again, but didn't confess this time. By then, I realized our foundation was cracked, and I moved out. He did not pursue me, and within 6 months I met the man of my dreams, who I am now married to. We've been together for 5 years now and the sex is always great and always frequent. I know now I need this in order to be happily married. I completely disregard what Allen is saying in this respect. Lack of sex ruined my previous marriage, and frequent quality sex is making my current marriage a heaven on earth. Now, not all people place such a high value on sex, so I understand Allen's point would apply to some people. But others - like myself - will never and can never accept less than all I deserve and need sexually. Why would I ever settle for less again?

So you can see, maybe I can share with you some really relevant feelings and thoughts (in fact, I took pause when I read your short thing about your H's kisses making you irritated...wow, could I relate to that in my previous marriage!) But the one thing I can tell you for sure is that unless you can get your H to understand his part in this and his issues with sex - most of which are obviously not about you but about something within himself - then your sex life is likely dooomed. I won't say your marriage is doomed, because maybe you will stay married without a sex life, who knows. But I've BTDT and can tell you that based on what you are describing, your H will never fully step up to that plate without full on therapy for himself, for HIS issues.

I am sure that the affair did a number on your H's self-esteem and obviously you are now receiving backlash from that. But the SSM that existed before the affair has still not been fixed, and that is the real issue.

Can you combine your OM confession with a full out honest other type of confession, where you confess to your H that you don't know if you will be able to stay with him forever if the sex never improves? Gosh how I wish I would have just said this to my H about 5 years before I left him. I think maybe we would have had a chance. Yes it would have been lots of hard work, but it would have been worth it. I know NOW that we could have fixed it, it was not simply that he was a bad kisser or anything that simple...it was very complex but COULD HAVE been figured out...IF I had his agreement to get on board and get some therapy.

What do you think?

DQ

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I would only answer what he asks you, and answer truthfully. Say a prayer ahead of time (and I will too!) that if God thinks that your H can't handle it, that he won't ask you, but that you will not lie to him.

I'm just silly enough to believe that God honors those kinds of prayers.

[Kettricken]

OK, and he when he asks what he said do I go into that? I don't tell him where he works, correct?

Why not?

I mean, I understand why that might be difficult and maybe painful and disconcerting for both of you. And I get that it probably feels like you are bringing back the pain up into the forefront of everyone's attention and inflicting it all over again. (Which is NOT the case when examined rationally; you didn't initiate contact; OM did.)

But to me, that doesn't make it the wrong choice. From my perspective, your goal is to make your husband your absolute partner, your go-to guy who can believe that he has not only your full cooperation but your confidence when it comes to working together to keep the OM *out* of your lives and marriage. The only way to do that in any way that is vaguely real is to TELL him the actual *facts* of the situation.

Your feelings and memories? Subject to your own yearnings and perspectives. Not his burden.

The FACTS that the OM contacted you, and now works three blocks away? Both concrete new factors in the situation. Definitely his business.

IMHO.

[whatdidido]

Pup-I'm already praying. So, if he says what did he say, should I leave out where he works? I don't think he will ask specifics, he will leave it up to me.

Kett- I'm wanting to tell him that piece....but again, I'm thinking of my H. He would rather not know, but I should tell him anyway because it is information that OM told me when he contacted me and that is what my H wants to know?

DQ- Yes, we have had many, many, many sex discussions our whole marriage. The discussions ended with him saying he didn't know why he wasn't able to show that kind of love, to discussion upon discussion of his screwed up childhood, to what could I do to attract him (he finally gave me a couple things which I did and they didn't do anything to change our sex life), to the fact that he loves me and can't I see that with the way he shows me (by doing things for me), to "we need to stop talking about it, it is making it worse". And, that is where I stepped back. Sex is not everything, but yes I need it to feel like I am more than just a close friend. I need that connection.

Right. I cannot do my H's part. He must do this himself. He does understand the importance but has not followed through on doing anything. He wants it to change, but doesn't do anything to fix it. You said "full on therapy"....any advice on where to go, who to look for. We have had a really bad experience with therapists so I need some help there.

You're with me on the real issue here. Help me if you can.

I don't know if I could say that I will leave if the sex never improves. He is reading a book ( he actually says he is reading it a second time) to help so there is some effort there. If I say that I'd leave that would put pressure on him and he will shut down unconsciously, I believe.

[DanceQueen]

wdid...Open and honest sex conversations used to push my ex-h away from me, too. But now I realize it was presicely because I was not open and honest ENOUGH. I was just honest enough to make him feel a sting in his pride, and then I would back off because I couldn't bare to see him in that type of pain. Men's sexual egos are so fraigle, and I could see that immediately. So I backed off each time, never quite getting the full open and honest truth out there to him. He hid behind his perceived insult, and would just mutter things like "great, so now I suck in bed, too". Which would effectively send me backward and make me unwilling to bring the topic up again anytime soon.

But I now know from a closure conversation I had with my ex-h, that he felt "weak and afraid" (his words), and that his only defense was to morally "put me beneath him" (his words). He says he now realizes that a truly moral person would never put someone else beneath them....

So what does this mean in your sitch? Only this: please don't be so afraid of those ego-hurting conversations, as long as they are TRUTHFUL. Be more concerned that him backing you off those conversations is actually a tactic for him to avoid dealing with the problem. It is subconscious, he likely doesn't realize he's backing you off. In his conscious mind, he wants to work on things and wishes it was different. But this may not be enough to break through whatever his true barriers to intimacy are.

Another point is this: when I was in your shoes, I had my own intimacy barriers going on, looking back on it. Why else would I have stayed in a marriage with a man who I knew for certain there would never be any true intimacy with? I may have complained about it, but it took me 15 years to change anything about it, right? In retrospect I can see now that I was insulating myself from intimacy just as much as my ex-h was insulating himself. You probably need to look within and find out why you have put yourself in a situation that will ensure you receive no intimacy. (Its a bit of a mind f*ck to find out within yourself where this leads...)

...Back to being honest with him but ignoring the ego sting...one of the really important things I wish I had done early in my marriage is take my ex-h aside and tell him directly "I'm sorry if this will hurt your feelings, but I do not enjoy the way you kiss. Could we please take some time out, either now or soon, to practice kissing, where I can show and tell you what I like and what I do not like?" And then I would have wished to take the lead on these kissing lessons and be very bold in my direction...because I really do know how I want to be kissed, it should have been easy.

I realize now that he would have been open to this, and would have loved the kissing lessons. His feelings may have stung for only a moment, but then he would have been so happy with the kissing we both could have grown so much together. But instead, what I did was blurt out at some inopportune moment "ugh, I don't like the way you kiss!" to which he recoiled in shame...and then I never said anything about it again.

I was not brave enough to force through the truly open and honest way of handling that particular situation...and sadly enough, I believe if I had been able to do that one thing better, our whole marriage may have been better...for it was just a kiss I was going for with the first time I cheated...all I wanted was one kiss I enjoyed. See my point? Maybe there is still time for you and your H for you to be truly open and honest about these things...accept his getting a dent to his ego but push right through that and get to something fun to do for an exercise?

As for therapy: this is diffficult and your H would have to go do a search for someone qualified and who he works well with. This can usually only be done by someone who has a pretty good idea of what their problems really are. I am sorry that I can't provide any advice that way, but I do suggest he check into sex therapy, not counseling. Sex therapists generally have tools and exercises and book recommendations that counselors do not.

DQ

[Kettricken]

Dance Queen, this was a BRILLIANT post, top to bottom; exactly what I wanted to convey (especially the first three paragraphs).

WDID: What She Said.

[Hope4us]

WDID, I only have a minute, but while I was thinking about what I would say, I read DQ's posts and she pretty much says what I think you should do. OM contacting you is a perfect way to lead into the sex talk.

You have the double whammy going on. A SSM prior to the A, and then the A to deal with, and now a SSM again.

As a guy, I can say I just don't get your H and in the same respect, Allen. Maybe I'm just weird, but I don't think so, but for me, I can separate ML and having sex. Some times I want to ML, all tender and kisses and other times I just want to F.

Maybe that's why I didn't have too many issues when W and I started being intimate again after her A. Sometimes there were images, but I just thought, screw it, if we're not going to make it, at least I'm having hot sex.

Ok, enough about me. Like I said, I think DQ hit it on the head and with her being a woman with much the same experiences as you, I think you should listen to her.

I know I would refuse to live in a SSM, even as much as I love my W. Sex to me makes me feel whole. Without it, I don't think I could be happily married. I get the impression you feel the same way.

Now I'm not saying that you should leave your H right now, but it's obvious from what you've said that he has some issues that need to be addressed before he's able to give you what you need.

I think you use OM contacting you as a way to bring the topic up. Maybe something along the lines of what I said to say before, but then tell your H that there really needs to be a change in your SSM or there will be a point where you're outie. Tell him that you love him and want him, but you feel unloved because he doesn't want you and you can't live that way. Tell him that you'd like to see a counselor, either together or individually so you guys can figure out just what the hang up is because nothing would make you more happy than to have a happy, fulfilling, intimate relationship with him, including sexually.

I can't put words in your mouth because only you know your H here, but I fear that you will end up being so lonely that you're bound to repeat what happened. And I don't think either you or your H want that. So what's your other choice? Both of you need to figure this out in an open and honest way, with or without outside help. Protecting your H's feelings is not going to get you anywhere.

I think the time is past for protecting your H's feelings if you two are ever going to get to where you both seem to want your marriage to be. I wish to god that my W had been open and honest with me BEFORE she went where she did.

[karen43]

Re: the sexual stuff. Could you maybe break it down into baby steps? I'm thinking there is stuff you could do on a regular basis to be intimate with him. Figure out what it is you really need/want and work up from the easier stuff? Maybe just hand-holding, touching, or whatever. I know that I miss sex too (it's been 2 years now!), but sometimes I think even more I miss touching, hand-holding, kissing, etc. that I so took for granted...

[Hope4us]

I'm with ya Karen. For me, in some ways, that lack of touch was worse than the lack of sex. There are times when just holding my W's hand is such a charge.

Don't get me wrong, the sex is awesome, but intimacy is so much more than sex.