Problems after the affair...Rebuilding

[Allen A]

Also whatdid..you may be interested in watching Dr Phil this coming Thursday, he's doing a full segment on differing libidos between spouses and such...you can find it on his website homepage...I would post the link here but I do not believe they allow that.

Its this coming Thursday's Dr Phil Show

[karen43]

I'm not trying to hide something from him because I'm up to no good, I'm trying to keep him from getting hurt.

That's not your job. He's an adult; he's not your child. You said you don't want to make him unhappy, again not your job. You aren't responsible for his emotions. You aren't responsible for hurting him. If anything, he should have some anger at the OM for stalking you.

I do think any method OM has contacted you recently, phone and email you should change that info. If he ever calls your house change that # too. You are protecting your family from a predator, I do believe that. OM is not respecting you and your family.

I think you should immediately change your cell & email, and then tell your H he contacted you and you have changed both in an effort to stop the stalking. If he contacts you again, I think you should even possibly let him know him you will seek out a restraining order or charge him with stalking or whatever to let him know you mean business.

[sandi2]

Didi, I don't want to sound as if I am backtracking what I said in the beginning, but I need to expound on this more. I am not one to read old posts, but I ran across one last night right before checking on your thread. In that thread, Puppy had told me that I gave the poster bad advice based on my own feelings toward my stitch. So then I came and read yours "again" and realized that was mainly what I had done in my advice here. Needless to say, it jerked my head around. In fact, I've debated on leaving the board b/c of it.

You see, my H's health decline so much since he discovered my EA. When I finally emerged from the fog to finally see what was happening to him, you can imagine how I felt. So, when I said what I did about "protecting" your H from more pain, it was not that I was saying for you to treat him as if he were a child, or that I was encouraging you to lie.... but actually, I was thinking of how I saw that kind of news affecting my own H who has heart & blood pressure problems. The scence of him having a stroke or heart attack flashed in my mind....but that is my stitch and not yours. I am sure my H is probably a lot older than yours. Several years ago, I would have told him as soon as he came home that day....and when I realized I was telling you based on how things are in "my life".....I had to come back to explain "why". You would be surprised how one changes after they have these type of health problems when they get older. The man who used to be able to deal with anything, can't handle it anymore. It doesn't make him less of a man, but it is the combination of age and health that you have to consider what to do best. That is what I meant by "protecting" him from more pain.

So, I thought about it last night b/c I didn't want to respond too quickly, as I have been known to do. The biggest thing about this situtation of yours is that the OM is working three doors down from where you live. That has got to make you feel uncomfortable since he has contacted you! I'm concerned about what the stress is going to do to you.....and what it will do to your H. I can't remember if you said OM moved to that town after the affair or if he has always been there. Don't know the size of your town, but if it were my little town.....the chances of my H not discovering OM was working three doors down would be very slim.

Either way, you have a serious problem. You described how this has affected your H and that he can't seem to get past it. I can only tell you what I did before ....that you know your H and your R better than anyone. I just didn't want to give you bad advice--and you take it-- and then things turn worse. What I'm thinking in my head isn't what always comes across on paper.......so I wanted to clear that up with you. I am concerned that your H will not handle the news very well and will allow it to fester, but then I don't "know" him....that is just based on what you have said. Maybe the others are right and you shouldn't take a gamble . He may not find out about the OM calling you, but I think he will find out about him working so close to your home. The thought did come to me that if OM doesn't bow out of this, he may tell others and the news get back to your H.....or OM could even be bold enough to tell him, since he called the house. (Forgive me for not being able to remember all the details of your stitch.)

I just want the best for you sweetie. Maybe I shouldn't say anything......but I am here for you and I think I know how you are feeling.

[whatdidido]

Thanks for the input everyone. Any input on the pre-affair lack of sex or interest from my H and how to go about working through that? I should probably go to the ssm forum.

I'm not going to intentionally hurt him with information he does not need to know. It has nothing to do with him. When I had an affair I had to tell him because I needed to in order to stop. I needed to ask for forgiveness and not do it again. I needed to apologize for my behavior toward him due to what I was doing. I don't need to do that anymore....for him OR for me.

I'm listening to all of you, and because of it I almost said F it and spewed it out to him last night and then caught myself.....it is just not fair to him. I'm NOT treating him like a child and it IS my job to be kind. This is just cruel to do this to him for absolutely no reason. The reason to tell him from what I have read so far is that it would be better to hear it from me if he ever finds out (I know him, he won't care if he finds out now or later...either way, he won't like it and it will bother him...it is only a matter of how soon he would have to let it bother him and he will wish he never knew). I DO know him....like Sandi said, it will fester within him.....He and I are alike in that way. The way my affair has haunted me and past OM memories have haunted me will be the way it affects him and it is UNNECESSARY!

The only thing that makes me consider it is what Hope had said about whether this could stop our intimacy...this secret within MYSELF...that could block that. It just seems selfish to dump my stuff on him so that I can feel closer to him. Believe me, I would LOVE to just tell him everything and get it off my shoulders....how he works 3 blocks down, how I have flashes in my mind of OM and I having sex, how it was the best sex I have ever had, how I laughed more and smiled more than I have ever done with him, how a song will pop on and it will remind me of something OM did or said, how he emailed me and still misses me, and even to bring up some of the old past stuff of what I did while in the affairs...the many states I visited, the crazy things I did (good and bad), the list goes on........So, I'm suppose to tell him about this latest phone call and email but NOT tell him about some of those other things.....nope, doesn't make sense to me. Censor the sex details but don't censor a stupid call and email that means nothing to me and has no affect on what we do.

Bottom line, he won't want to know, and if he finds out he won't be mad. Hurt because of what he finds out, but not hurt because I didn't tell him. He would understand. When the OM called me about a month after I told my H about the A I told him and he said, "I just want him to go away...in our life and in my mind. It's easier to think that he is not there, than to deal with him again and again." I listened to him.

The thing is....what I need the most support on here is the lack of sex in the relationship and how I feel like our marriage has become only a close friendship...the thing that helped bring on the affair in the first place. I was hoping for some people that had that happen...Nocode helped a bit on that....That is the most critical problem right now....not this stupid phone call/email. And, no one can help me with that or even say anything that helps. Kinda like....yeah, you are pretty screwed with that, but make sure you tell him about the phone call....silly....

[karen43]

And, no one can help me with that or even say anything that helps. Kinda like....yeah, you are pretty screwed with that, but make sure you tell him about the phone call....silly....

I think they could be related though. My X would hold info back from me to "protect" me. We had a codependent R, with X acting like my parent sometimes and treating me like a child. I couldn't handle the truth kind of thinking. i just think if you want to have a healthy R in all senses, sexual and otherwise, that might be something to think about. I do think the reading books is good, but you also will need to see an MC, someone that maybe specializes in sex issues. I don't think you're screwed at all...I do think the OM in your sitch is toxic to you and your M, and you don't sound completely over him from your recent posts.

You know we all care about you here!!!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

WDID,

Did you promise him transparency, and/or to let him know if OM ever re-contacted you?

I'm sorry I haven't commented on your SSM sitch, but I've been such a long-term failure in that department, I really don't feel qualified to give you anything that would help.

Puppy

[Kettricken]

Ok, I'll bite.

First of all: there is a substantive difference between memories/what's going on inside your head AND fresh action by a third party. Trying to conflate them so you feel better about concealing the OMs phone call seems like very poor logic, to me.

People may not be commenting on your SSM because it's just too hard; although there may be repeated patterns, every SSM is usually a tangled-up mess of a lot of things (things the participants may or may not be aware of) and it's hard to give an outside opinion.

However. You might want to spend some time considering this: Is there a relationship between your extreme disinclination to needlessly "hurt" (and yes, defend this as you may, this is still mind-reading) your husband with fresh news of OM and a historical disinclination to "hurt" your husband by being very open, up-front, and persistent about your dissatisfaction with sex in your marriage?

It's hard to think of a more vulnerable place to hit someone than in their sexual efficacy. Telling your husband he wasn't satisfying you sexually probably did hurt him. As long as you were being honest about your needs and not saying it to be vindictive ... so what? People hurt each other, even when they love each other, it's inevitable and even sometimes necessary. Where is it written that his hurt automatically trumps your hurt?

I say this because *now* you sound like a person who is almost pathologically afraid of being "the person who hurts someone". The problem with this -- beyond the fact that it devalues *your* humanity -- is that as long as you feel that way, your tendency will probably be to conceal anything hurtful, including your true needs and desires in the relationship. That way lies the risk of ending up right where you started here, in another fun, vow-free lightweight affair that (paradoxically) you can enjoy *because* you don't care all that much whether you hurt the OM or not.

I may be completely off-base, but it's something to think about.

[DanceQueen]

wdid...I'm going to ask you what this means, from an earlier post of yours on this thread:

You think we should separate when neither one of us wants to? It worked for you and Mrs. Pup because she kinda wanted to...right? I don't know. I know the whole Gucci/Robx thing and I see how it can work, but for me, if my H would start dating I would think, "See...I knew he never loved me."

Is that last sentence something significant, a feeling you've always had? I'm just trying to guess but maybe this feeling is part of your problem.

I know most of your story but I can't recall if this is a feeling you've always had during your marriage. I'm bringing it up because if you are still feeling this way, then what is the root of it?

In other words, the way you worded the above seems odd to me and that there is more to it than what you wrote.

DQ

[Allen A]

Thanks for the input everyone. Any input on the pre-affair lack of sex or interest from my H and how to go about working through that? I should probably go to the ssm forum.

1. Don't pressure him. He already feels inadequate. I am going to clumsily paraphrase puppy here...having your wife cheat on you with another man is perhaps the most immasculating experience anyone can go through

2. Stop expecting marriage sex to be the same as affair sex. When you are having an affair you are HIGH from an ADDICTION. There are chemicals flowing through your brain that make the experience SEEM MUCH better than it WAS. I am not suggesting a comparison or anything here. I am saying its an unfair comparison to make in the first place, but you assume these men are on equal footing. If you were cheating WITH your husband ON this OM I think you might find your husband to be more exciting...you would be surprised at how intoxicating a secret taboo sexual affair can be...and how it can confuse our senses and our memories of an experience. I really think you are confusing the affair with the OM himself...are you excited by HIM or the experience an affair offers you? I am thinking the latter

3. Don't expect things to improve anytime soon. Sex is NOT as important as having a trusting loving relationship. THAT needs repaired FIRST and THAT isn't there yet. MEN often expect to have a great sex life with their partner while they aren't being open and honest...that approach is toxic to the long term. You really need to get priorities straight here. If your husband is more important than sex is, then you will need to act that way so your husband FEELS that way. He likley has picked up on your dissatisfaction with him

4. I think what also might help is to TALK about sex more, and to help each other FEEL attractive first. I told my wife this some time ago. You are sounding like the guy in a teenage relationship and he is sounding like the hesitant female. He likely still feels unsafe and violated and you are focusing on things that just aggravate his uncertainty. Your husband wants and needs to feel like he is safe and that he can trust you again. If you just keep talking about sex he is never going to progress to the sexual level. You need to earn his trust back...and that takes time. Talk about sex first...write it down even. Men have to put their libido's on hold for women all the time (myself included ... still not having sex and I don't WANT sex yet..it would just give me anxiety), women may have to take turns waiting too... Find out what's safe to TALK about re sex...and just do that for a while. Tell HIM what HE did RIGHT...tell HIM what you miss from HIM... Maybe you are already doing this...maybe not, but I will toss it out there for you

I'm not going to intentionally hurt him with information he does not need to know. It has nothing to do with him. When I had an affair I had to tell him because I needed to in order to stop. I needed to ask for forgiveness and not do it again. I needed to apologize for my behavior toward him due to what I was doing. I don't need to do that anymore....for him OR for me.

I think you are right. If he doens't need to know then don't tell him. My concern was and still is that you are gambling with your marriage here to avoid some hurt. If you are ok gambling with your marriage then I think that's all that needs to be said. You know the risks if your H finds out from someone else (OM or otherwise). You know how much damage this is going to do if your H finds out. You know best what the liklihood of your H finding out is. If you are ok accepting the risk, the damage, based on the likelihood then that's what you have accepted and nothing needs to be said really...

One question..what do you plan on doing when the following happens ... ?

1. The OM e-mails you again
2. Then the OM calls again
3. The OM stops by your house/work when your husband isn't home
4. The OM leaves a hand written letter in your mailbox
5. The OM shows up at your doorstep begging to see you again
6. The OM leaves something somewhere for your husband to find (in my situation the OM put pictures of my wife and him right up on his home page in the open for all the public to view... And they are still there!!! He hasn't taken them down...)
7. The OM tells your husband he loves you and wants him to step aside...

At what point in this scenario 1 - 7 are you going to put a stop to it and HOW? How long are you going to ignore him and put stress on yourself to keep this a secret? If you have this sorted out that's cool...this is just the progression these things take...most of the time the spouse finds out by step 4 or earlier... At what point of the escallation process are you going to tell him and/or take an offensive action to put an end to the OM's actions?

I'm listening to all of you, and because of it I almost said F it and spewed it out to him last night and then caught myself.....it is just not fair to him. I'm NOT treating him like a child and it IS my job to be kind. This is just cruel to do this to him for absolutely no reason. The reason to tell him from what I have read so far is that it would be better to hear it from me if he ever finds out (I know him, he won't care if he finds out now or later...either way, he won't like it and it will bother him...it is only a matter of how soon he would have to let it bother him and he will wish he never knew). I DO know him....like Sandi said, it will fester within him.....He and I are alike in that way. The way my affair has haunted me and past OM memories have haunted me will be the way it affects him and it is UNNECESSARY!

Fair enough... you know him best

The only thing that makes me consider it is what Hope had said about whether this could stop our intimacy...this secret within MYSELF...that could block that. It just seems selfish to dump my stuff on him so that I can feel closer to him. Believe me, I would LOVE to just tell him everything and get it off my shoulders....

how he works 3 blocks down,

I think you are right on the money here...if his knowing would just hurt him either way the same... and there's nothing he can do about it anyhow then maybe he should be left out of the loop...I know if my OM here were working three blocks away I would be a complete mess...

how I have flashes in my mind of OM and I having sex,

I think that's the affair high you are confusing with what was actually happening. You are aware affairs are addictions and that they mess up your brain chemistry? I know a lot of alcoholics that insist that drinking makes THEM happy too...its just messing with brain chemistry...its not real... you can get the same thing from LSD my dear...you don't need the OM to feel THAT kind of excitement...its just chemicals at work in your brain...and him working so close by is likley keeping those chemicals fired up instead of them leaving your system to a healthy state again...

how it was the best sex I have ever had,

Uh no...affair sex is not the best..its cruel and selfish... And you are again likley confusing the addiction with the experience...honeslty, its not as good as you think it was...affairs mess with your head...have you even considered the possibility that there are OTHER men you could have an affair with that would make you FEEL the same excitement as this OM? Its not him that did this as much as it is the affair...affairs mess up your head... They unaturally HEIGHTEN an experience that may otherwise be less so...its like taking LSD and having sex and expecting sober sex to feel just as exciting...and attributing ALL the cause on the OM. Sorry but it wasn't just HIM, there was an affair involved exciting you. You also are basing this on memories that are not that far away still...you aren't out of the fog yet or seeing him clearly..or you would be at least crediting the addiction with some of this...and you haven't...you still sound infaturated... I could be wrong... but I really think you aren't giving addiction enough credit here. I don't imagine you WANT to be hooked on some fantasy and let someone sexually exploit you while you are addicted to a fantasy... So it may help to acknowledge the addiction rather than giving the OM all the credit..your imagination played a BIG part in your excitement too... it must have...the OM hasn't changed and YOU have...and your circumstances have...so something has dawned on you that you missed earlier... what was it that dawned on you that got you OUT of the fog?

how I laughed more and smiled more than I have ever done with him,

Addiction again. That's an unhealthy and unatural high from lying and sneaking around and hurting someone in secret..it gives you that kind of excitement...criminals experience highs and adrenaline during a heist too...they are convinved its the best feeling in the world too..its not...its an unhealthy high that hurts people...

how a song will pop on and it will remind me of something OM did or said,

Addiction.

how he emailed me and still misses me,

Now THIS...you are assuming. He SAID he misses you, but lets look at what that means when said by an OM or OW :

I miss you : This usually means something to the affect of - "I want to have sex...are you still available and willing to compromise your dignity so that I can feel good at the expense of your family?" - THAT is what I MISS YOU means... This is not something to get stary eyed over...he's a predator and prodding you for weakness... That's ALL that IS...you are romanticizing something that isn't at all romantic...its blatantly cruel and he clearly doens't care if he hurts you, your husband, or your son... I can't imagine you want to get starry eyed over that do you?

and even to bring up some of the old past stuff of what I did while in the affairs...

No point in giving your H something to haunt him. HOWEVER. if your husband's imagination is haunting him NOW...and the reality is NOT as bad as what he's imagining then it may be better to let him know...you have to decide what is gonig to hurt him more...what he imagines happend or what DID happen...what's worse?

And again, this is a high from an affair...you are giving this guy waaaaaaaay too much credit...you are way understimating how powerful an addiction can be...and how clouded judgement becomes there... you just sound like you are still hooked a bit and missing it... I wouldn't credit the OM for any of this... I don't think you are really missing the OM...I think you are just missing your imagination...

Michele Davis talks about this too...she asks people having affairs... what do you like about yourself when you are having an affair?

That's your imagination she's talking about..how did YOU perceive yourself... you are giving this guy way too much credit... your imagination has a powerful hold on you right now...

the many states I visited,

Nope, don't do that..he will never want to travel again....

the crazy things I did (good and bad),

Nope... What he wants to konw is that you love HIM MORE and that the OM is DEAD to you and your home...which he ISN'T yet... I have said this before but I will repeat it... when the OM is dead to YOU, then your H will start to feel better...until then don't expect much progress...

the list goes on........

Then keep it to yourself, I agree with you

So, I'm suppose to tell him about this latest phone call and email but NOT tell him about some of those other things.....nope, doesn't make sense to me. Censor the sex details but don't censor a stupid call and email that means nothing to me and has no affect on what we do.

The phone call and email were AFTER you reconcilled and told him the affair is OVER. Your H is assuming you are being open and honest with him about your present activities... My wife told me her affair is over...I KNOW there's things I don't konw... I am trusting that from the day she told me its over that she's been FULLY HONEST WITH ME ABOUT FACTS FROM THAT POINT FORWARD.

Bottom line, he won't want to know, and if he finds out he won't be mad. Hurt because of what he finds out, but not hurt because I didn't tell him. He would understand. When the OM called me about a month after I told my H about the A I told him and he said, "I just want him to go away...in our life and in my mind. It's easier to think that he is not there, than to deal with him again and again." I listened to him.

Yup...i feel the same way... But if the OM is NOT away and HE thinks he is... I dunno. He doenst want to THINK the OM is away, he wants him to BE AWAY... if you are ok with your H living a lie that may catch up with him... then you have my support at the very least... I want the OM from my home gone too... And I was TOLD he is... But if the OM was still stalking MY WIFE I would want to know so I could support HER and help HER...

Be sure the OM does NOT know you are keeping this from your H. If he finds out you are keeping secrets about him still he's going to see that as an opening and pursue you further... He's a predator and will behave that way if he has the opportunity

The thing is....what I need the most support on here is the lack of sex in the relationship and how I feel like our marriage has become only a close friendship...the thing that helped bring on the affair in the first place. I was hoping for some people that had that happen...Nocode helped a bit on that....That is the most critical problem right now....not this stupid phone call/email. And, no one can help me with that or even say anything that helps. Kinda like....yeah, you are pretty screwed with that, but make sure you tell him about the phone call....silly....

ok. That's fair. you understand the risks and that's our main concern I think. We just don't want you to regret your choices so we are challenging them with you. You have heard them and I am at least convinced you understand the risks and the damage and are willing to live with it.

The sex will take time. You need to be FRIENDS for a while first. It's been over two years for me whatdidido and I still don't want to be near my wife...when I DO think of sex with her after about six seconds I get an image of her having sex with OM and then that urge is GONE...for DAYS...

Trust me he's avoiding sex right NOW because of the affair...how long has the affair been over in his mind? How long has it been since HE thinks he has had a free home again? Six months at most? That's not enough time...

If you push for sex when he's sitll trying to heal from this affair its gonna do a lot of damage. If you want sex to get better then you are going to have to wait til he trusts you again.

You seem to think because it was an issue BEFORE the affair, that it can be handled independently from the affair...it can't...

And yes, this makes you vulnerable...I could theorize here and suggest that MAYBE he is subconsoiusly TESTING YOUR COMMITTMENT by NOT having sex with you. If he holds out for two years and you don't break THEN he may trust you to have sex again.

I don't think he's doing this consiously, but I could imagine his brain MAY be holding off as some sort of test of your committment that he may not even be aware he's doing.

You can't hold your committment hostage here or it will just do a lot of damage... I get the feeling you are implying subtly here that if he doens't have sex with you soon that you are going to start looking around... And that's not fair to him right now... I realise you aren't doing that on purpose, but if you are pressuring him at all he may feel like you are giving him some ultimatum...

My wife tried that on me ... I think she's still trying it on me... She's inviting me to try foods and things that I wans't into before the affair... She's testing me to see if I am going to go back to the OLD person again... sometimes I do, sometimes I don't..but I can SENSE that she's testing me... and I don't LIKE being tested..I don't like having her hold her committment hostage like that... I feel like she's got a gun at her committment to me and she's saying "OK, you better start changing or I am gonna cheat on you again"... It's not at all motivating.

I am not saying you are doing this outright, my wife isn't...but that's how it feels when I am pressured or tested in any way to be something new right now...

Right now I want to heal from my home and family being violated..i DON"T want to be tested for NEWNESS anytime soon...

A word to the wise again about sex :

1. Don't try ANYTHING NEW - if he sees any new tricks from you he will ASSUME where they came from and his willingness to have sex will drop to zero in an instant

2. Don't wear anything new or say anything new - He doen'st want you to do anything that may trigger thoughts of teh OM. If you have clothes you wore when you were intimate with the OM... get RID of them...

Your husband is haunted a LOT more than you are trust me... the last thing he wants is to have sex and be reminded of that full force... Until the OM is GONE out of both of your heads sex is not liekely to improve much... and I wouldn't expect it to ...

I could be wrong...but I think most therapists will tell you that the affair really needs to be fully resolved before addressing sexual issues. Yup I know how frustrating that is that you have to "wait your turn" so to speak, but comparing an absense of sex in a household with a viscoius sexual affair? We had a SSM in my home beofre the affair...I was the HD and she was the LD...and SHE ended up cheating... want to know why? She claimed that I left HER feeling inadequate so SHE needed to repair HER ego...I don't buy it either, but it's something to think about...

I am also hearing something similar to what I heard in my home early on in the affair. My wife started to show some uncertainty about what she was doing after four months or so of us fighting night after night... so finally agreed to see a family therapist, on the condition that :

i. We address the problems existing in our R BEFORE the affair began
ii. That she keeps on seeing the OM during therapy

Yah I know pup, real constructive parameters to healing there hunh? Well, I agreed because I knew what the therapist would say : END THE AFFAIR OR I CAN'T HELP YOU. All three of them told her that... so, she gave up therapy and continued the affair...

I just hear something not nearly as bad but similar here...that you want to work on sexual issues while working through the affair...I honeslty don't konw if it works that way... again I could be wrong... I am thining the affair needs resolved first...

YOU may feel better and the sex may help you work things out...but what if addressing sex now pushes HIM further back? Are you willing to put your husband further back to have sex earlier for you?

I am in your husband's place right now...its not that you arne't desirable I am sure.. Right now I tihnk sex and the OM shows up within seconds...and after THAT happens ... Nothing is gonna happen... beyond my control... imagine a woman catching her husband looking at porn and then him asking her for sex...is that gonna happen? Nope...not for a long while I am sure...

Let's look at it this way. You are getting lots of readers on this thread, but by your own admission their concern is about the affair and you two healing from that, but you are frustrated that more attention isn't placed on the seuxal issues. Well, we are speaking up for your husband here mostly I would think...and sex isn't something we are comfortable discussing I guess... At least I can say that's the case for me...we weigh what's heavily on our minds and address that first...and sex isn't the priority..trust is... At least it is for me... I can't have sex with someone I can't trust...


I think part of the problem addressing your SSM is that we don't ... At least I dont... Know precisely where you are with that... How much physical contact is there right now? Are you sleeping in the same bed? Re-establishing intimate contact happens in stages...what stage are you at?

[Kettricken]

You sure have plenty to say, Allen. Much of it about you and quite likely completely irrelevant to whatdidido, whom you seem to be treating as a convenient target in substitution for your own wife. Maybe you should start your own thread.

Also, this:

Your husband is haunted a LOT more than you are trust me...

You cannot possibly know this, and it's really quite offensive to assert.