The truth is that it is Thinker that is sounding and acting like the victim here.
He has been talking about his EXTREME anger since the Retro get together.
He failed to mention that "little part" about the VIOLENCE (yes pulling your wife's arm against her will IS violent)until SHE called him on it...
He is being selfish.... He is basically telling her "you aren't doing the work.. If you did the work you would love me or we could work this out.. do what I want. Do it my way. If you would do the work and quit being a victim we would be happy".......
"Give me what I want. Give me what I want. What you want is not important. You are in a fog. You don't make sense. You aren't doing the work. I have tried and tried. I have been compassionate and opened up.You won't talk. You keep blaming me. You this and you that...."
I can see why this isn't working....
She sees and feels nothing but pressure. She is correct in being scared of a man that is sounding so angry. He told us he was so angry that he saw "red" and wasn't thinking clearly. Of course he conveniently forgot to tell us on this thread about his "grabbing her arm and pulling her three feet into another room AGAINST her will, even though she told him THREE times...
Thinker has much much much more work to do. Much more...
Let her go... What that means is that YOU initiate the separation and the divorce process. It is THEN that she may start to believe that you are done. It is THEN that the pressure is off of her to "feel" what YOU want her to feel and act the way YOU want her to act.
Dia can cook. I'll bake scones and wax philosophical.
Mmmmmmm, scones! I'm game. I made my first dead-on heavy cream soup this week. Rivalled anything I've had in a restaurant. Kidlet ate about 4 bowls full in one sitting. (I suspect a growth spurt.)
Open positions:
Masseur Manicurist Hot tub attendant (too cold for "Pool Boy")
The trouble with having an open mind is that people put things in it.
My sitch - Divorce Busted! http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804137#Post1804137
I have read plenty of compassionate validating from Thinker. He has been doing The Work. Mrs. Thinker has not. And when together they made the decision to go to the Marriage Emergency Room (Retro), she refused treatment. I agree he should let her go - as in "if you are miserable in this M, get going - move out, file...be a Big Girl." He can protect himself legally and still work on the M. He can insist on her being a Big Girl and still work on the M. But I believe she needs to be held accountable for the WORDS she s throwing around - to the C, to Thinker...if he is so awful, then she needs to get out of there. FWIW - I don't think she will leave...and she'll say that's his fault, too. She oozes Victim.
Greek [/quote]
Greek if has been showing her compassion its what thinker thinks she needs and not what she askes for. Compassion on his terms is not compassion she wants or needs
"She needs to be held accountable for the WORDS she is throwing around" She's testing Thinker to see if he will continue to keep up the Dance and allow her to play the Victom to Justify her own happiness. The only way this stops is if he gets out of the cycle that allows her to see her self as a victom. Forcing her to see the error of her ways keeps her there. She needs to be allowed to feel and experience her feelings and her terms. Thinker it stinks to be in this situation. But the only way to stop the cycle is allow her to be her. that stinks and only you can determine how long you can put up with it. She needs time and space. Retro, you need to get out, she needs to get out, is not giving her the space that she wants or needs. She wants the dance to stop just asmuch as Thinker does. She doesn't know how and any time Thinker participates in the dance it reenforcers her feelings.
Let go Thinker. 11 months no changes. Let it go. Worry----Fear----Anger----Control.
JJ
H:37 W:34 D11,S8,S6 Together 19 years M:10 Bomb:4/09
Let her go... What that means is that YOU initiate the separation and the divorce process. It is THEN that she may start to believe that you are done. It is THEN that the pressure is off of her to "feel" what YOU want her to feel and act the way YOU want her to act.
It won't happen UNTIL you let go...
Gucci thanks. I think I need to do the same in my situation. I need to find out if their is an affair. But this is exactly what I need to do. Let my wife be free to live as she thinks she wants to live and not how I think she wants to live.
JJ
H:37 W:34 D11,S8,S6 Together 19 years M:10 Bomb:4/09
Your post about the cycle is a very good one. But, with all due respect, I have to disagree about this:
Quote:
Thinker you are getting alot of bad advice about getting a lawyer and wondering what she is going to do next and what about this and what about that.
Going to speak with an attorney and being educated about and prepared for what may come down the pike is not a bad thing. It doesn't mean you have to file for D.
I agree the LBS should not wonder what the WAS will do next or wonder why the LBS does/thinks something. But, being prepared for all of the potential twists and turns is not a bad thing.
He does need to talk to a lawyer But he needs to do it outside the cycle of the Worry---Fear---anger----Control. If not he is doing more of the same and will not change and use it to justify his feelings. Thinker you need to evaluate your own true feelings and detach from why others are making you feel that way.
Thinker work on you. Take control of your own life and Let go of your wifes. Thats all brother.
H:37 W:34 D11,S8,S6 Together 19 years M:10 Bomb:4/09
Divorce busting is not about saving our marriage is about saving ourselves.
Next time you are on an airplane listen to the Flight Steward: Ladies and gentleman if your are sitting next to someone who can't put their mask on Please put your own mask on first than give assistance to the person next to you"
Your not putting on the mask the way I think you should. Let me help. OP: I don't need your help. OP: Take care of your self. You need my help your not doing it my way! No one is able or willing to take care of theselves. Both people suffocate and the marriage is dead.
JJ
H:37 W:34 D11,S8,S6 Together 19 years M:10 Bomb:4/09
He is being selfish.... He is basically telling her "you aren't doing the work.. If you did the work you would love me or we could work this out.. do what I want. Do it my way. If you would do the work and quit being a victim we would be happy".......
"Give me what I want. Give me what I want. What you want is not important. You are in a fog. You don't make sense. You aren't doing the work. I have tried and tried. I have been compassionate and opened up.You won't talk. You keep blaming me. You this and you that...." I can see why this isn't working....
Thinker - I was in the same frame of mind that Gucci described above for a long time, particularly when we went to the "Marriage Emergency Room" of Retrouvaille. In my case, I used the fact that she was having an EA to justify my behavior and the demands I was putting on her for a long time. I was in a state of thinking "Poor me, she is having an EA and won't wake up and do what's right for our family and our M, how could she do this?...."
While my opinions were very valid, I was using them, and the anger that came along with it, as a free pass to do the wrong things when it came to trying to keep my M together.
Only now that I feel like I have truly broken out of this cycle, can I look back and realize that what Gucci describes above is exactly where I was at. It is the fishbowl effect. When I was in the middle of it I didn't get it and fueled my behavior by focusing on the fact that she had an EA (even though I knew it was unproductive and needed to detatch - emotions were driving the ship).
You seem to be in the same situation I was in. She is only looking for things to get angry about and justify why she doesn't want to be M to you right now, so keep that in mind. I think you know this all too well, but our emotions overcome logic very easily.
Stay strong and don't give her fuel/ammunition for her WAW fire.
ME/XW:47 S21, D19, S15, S14 M:21 T:26 W moved 6/10 I filed 7/10 D final 4/12 remarried 8/12 W wants to R 12/10 and 4/11 but I decline
One more thing ... Retrouvaille turned things updside down for you emotionally due to your expectations and I don't blame you. Looking back now and seeing what you are going through makes me realize I went through the same thing - I was hoping it would make a big difference and it didn't so I was very frustrated (and then later busted her EA after about the 3rd post session).
The thing Retrouvaille does is give you HOPE that any M can be saved, but the catch is that both partners need to have the DESIRE to do it and they state that very clearly. It is one of the key ingredients that they talk about. I think there is a chance for a WAS to gain the DESIRE as a result of going to the weekend, but it is a toss-up. It depends what they are dealing with going in I think.
My W admitted that she had no DESIRE and that she didn't want to have to CHOOSE anything (as in love is a decision - her emotions were sending her in another direction). I then tried to 'force' her to decide in one way or another and it completely failed.
Only now that I have disengaged with her do I think there is actually a chance to save our M, but I am OK if it doesn't happen (but feel bad about the family breakup for my 4 kids).
ME/XW:47 S21, D19, S15, S14 M:21 T:26 W moved 6/10 I filed 7/10 D final 4/12 remarried 8/12 W wants to R 12/10 and 4/11 but I decline
I see the cycle. It makes sense. In fact, I can see myself in it at times in the past. We probably all can to one extent or another.
For me, "Control" meant becoming bossy, or critical, or stubborn -- all in attempt to control my spouses behavior so that she would do what I wanted her to do. Very occasionally it could escalate into short bursts of angry name calling All wrong. All unhealthy.
I know my W would use the word "controlling". I don't think she would ever have said "abusive". I have always been more likely to intellectually browbeat someone than to get physically rough.
And, in fact, I have been pretty successful at getting rid of the bossy, critical, stubborn parts, angry over the past year.
And then over the past couple of weeks I suffered a major victim puke. I switched over to seeing myself as a victim again, and got gradually angrier.
This past Monday morning, then, as it came to a head was the first and only time I have been so angry that I was acting irrationally - not just thinking irrationally, but acting irrationally.
It was the first time in any way I ever used physical force on my wife.
It is also the last.
No one was physically hurt, but it REALLY scared us BOTH.
Whatever it takes, that is NEVER going to happen again.
Last edited by Thinker; 10/16/0904:53 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
