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[Trying24now]

Tal,
YOU ARE a port in the storm, lord how I love to read your posts somehow, there's always something said in them that also speaks for me.
You're a terrific woman.
T2

[shinybear]

Now, who would think THAT post would make me laugh...but it did...an evil sort of chuckle..

I caught the Steven Kingish tone before you mentioned him!!

You gave me a bit of a chill with:

And then I thought of the things that will probably stick in my mind the longest: those times that I knew in my gut that Wolfie was lying to me about something, and he was lying to me with a small, cruel little smile on his face. All of the sudden it occurred to me that he didn't cheat on me...

...he cheated AT me. There was definately an element of vindictiveness about it, but I don't think he'll ever admit that even to himself.

Oh yeah....that's one of the things that still hurts and confuses me the most...it was like shards of pure vitriol and hatred flying from CJ's eyes...his lips thin and cruel...

I think in a way I was cheated AT too...there was a lot of anger amd cruelty thrown my way during the A (when he was lying so much).

Interesting, Tal. (and a really good read...how's that biography coming? )

Shiny

[sage]

Hey Tal,

I can totally relate to the news = funk standpoint. Kobe, the Petersen story...even Halle Berry and all the swirl that goes along with it.

And then I thought of the things that will probably stick in my mind the longest: those times that I knew in my gut that Wolfie was lying to me about something, and he was lying to me with a small, cruel little smile on his face. All of the sudden it occurred to me that he didn't cheat on me...

...he cheated AT me. There was definately an element of vindictiveness about it, but I don't think he'll ever admit that even to himself.

There's NO question in my mind that it's the lying phase (when I suspected but had no proof) that I finding so hard to forgive and "forget". I can **almost** understand the "I crossed a line without knowing it" mantra (OK, no I really can't...but I guess if one didn't have the boundary alert system that I do, well, maybe) but what I can't fathom is the conscious lying the "she's asking me and I must protect myself" decision. In kinder, gentler times I think "well, if he had really wanted to be with ow he would have come clean ..." but the not-so-kind part of me is just floored, stunned, unbelieving that h could have disliked me THAT much to just lie to my face over and over again.

I dunno...I never really thought of it as strongly as "vindictiveness" but I also haven't been able to see it (more kindly) as a manifestation of his pain and confusion.

I start thinking that Laci Peterson could very well have been on this bb. She could have suspected that her H was having an A. She could have known that her H was having an affair and was trying to DB because she didn't want to lose her marraige and she was pregnant. I remember wondering that very thing when I first started posting on these bb's.

I think I've mentioned that a year ago I found out that my mother is the ow to a man that she knew in HS. They reconnected a few years ago so now she's having an affair with a man who's been married for 40+ years. Anyway...I rarely deal with my mother anymore because of the horrible things that she said during the disclosure conversation (note that the conversation occurred during the "I suspect but didn't know" phase AND my mother had no idea of our marital issues). anyway, she told me that she now realized that an affair was really the LBS' fault (this is from a woman who HAD been cheated on during her m to my father!) and that since the w. probably KNEW and "wasn't doing anything about it", well, then she must be OK with it. Apparently my mother had forgotten the utter powerlessness (or feeling, that is) of knowing in your heart that your s. is cheating and not having a clue how to stop that freight trade.

arrrgh.

anyone want to trade mothers?

Sage

[optimist]

So, I am not the only one who has had that 'I think he actually hates me' feeling. Because sometimes, when my H lists my failings it sounds more hate than love. Especially in the immediate bomb period. I kept wondering: if I am such a monster why don't you ride off into the sunset?

I think that it is them they hate and us they project to. In a very infantile way, like a small child frustrated that plummets his mother while crying 'I hate you, I don't love you any more' You know children are cruel.

BTW, has someone read the chapter in Hillary Clinton's books where she describes what she felt when she found out? I could have written that passage!

BTW, Tal, are you sure Wolfie has not been talking to my H? That is SO like his style of conversation...

[holdingon]

No, you are not the only one who had the "he hates me" feeling. When they look at you through someone elses eyes... and yes, I have seen that smirk.

In addition to Laci, and Kobe, here where I live there is a trial beginning where he killed his W and burned her, then left her out in a field. They have 4 kids... To be completely honest, I made a notation in my journal months ago about if I came up missing, who did it and what I wanted for my kids. I also told a couple of friends. It does become way too crazy.

So, with that said, I need to remind myself just how far we have come... even though we have so much further to go.

How I can't wait to bury these ghosts in T2's graveyard...

[talitsa]

I'll have to do a decent reply later, but
I don't think hatred had anything to do with it.

I think it was passive-agressive stuff, plain and simple.

[Trying24now]

Tal,

I'm going to have to 'educate' myself on what 'passive/aggressive' really means. I know that I have come to the conclusion that my H may actually be a narcissist, and IF he is, then things will probably never really "change" at all.

I'll be watching for your 'input' on the passive/aggressive theory.
T2

[talitsa]

To my understanding, passive aggressive is when people are not openly hostile but do hostile things in a sideways, sneaky manner. It's when somebody smiles in your face while they arrange to have you stabbed in the back. Such a one would be "hurt and offended" if you actually held them responsible for the back wounds.

That's my (non-proffessional) description. Shiney could give you a much better description, I'm sure.

A Narcisist, huh? You've described him as being very self-centered, but you didn't really make it sound that extreme. Wouldn't hurt to look into characteristics, though. The way my C told me, there are a whole lot of shades of grey between "normal" and having a personality disorder. I was asking her what the heck Wolfie's C meant by calling him a "borderline recluse".

I guess all I was really trying to say is that Wolfie was holding a lot of resentments at me back then. He wouldn't talk about it, and didn't feel comfortable outright hurting me in any way. He was probably feeling pretty confused about the contradiction of being furious with someone he loved.

Add to that, he had convinced himself that I didn't care anymore and was just "keeping him around". I think that having the A was a way he could channel all of that resentment and frustration without actually being overtly hostile.

In other words, covert hostility = passive agressive. Same same.

[shinybear]

You know more than you think, Tal...You're right about the vast grey area between "normal" personality traits and "Personality Disorders".

As for passive aggression...pretty much on the mark...except that a LOT of it can be UNCONSCIOUS!!! CJ HATES when I breathe this phrase...but I have seen this pattern in him.

Here are a few subtler examples (most from the past, but not all):

CJ knows physical touch is one of Shiny's top LL's...but witholds it.

CJ knows how much photos mean to Shiny, takes many with his 39th birthday gift (expensive digital camera)...but never quite "gets around" to printing them out.

CJ knows that the income tax refund from FOUR years ago is a big issue...but as it's "money coming back" doesn't see any urgency to resolve it (we're talking $10,000!!!)

CJ maintains that it's just laziness? But we all KNOW how motivated the guy can be when he wants to!!!

As for Narcissim... again most of us have some degree of it.

Here are the DSM criteria for the Personality Disorder:

A PERVASIVE pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and apparent in a varitey of contexts....FIVE or more of the following must be evident:

1) grandiose sense of self-importance (eg. exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior with out deserving it)

2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brialliance, beauty, or ideal love

3) believes he is special and unique and can only be understood by, or associate with other special or high status people

4) requires excessive admiration

5) has a sense of entitlement (eg. unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment, or automatic compliance with his expectations)

6) is interpersonally exploitative eg takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends

7) lacks empathy, is unwilling or recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

8) is often envious of others or believes that they are envious of him

9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes



Shiny

[talitsa]

Shiney: I knew you'd be able to relate to the morbid humor!

Sage: You wouldn't want my Mom either! She could give Wolfie advanced lessons in passive/agressive behaviour!

Optimist: What kind of strange man language are they speaking ? Do they understand each other when they "grr-grunt-hrmmmph" like that? Do men carry on whole conversations in that language in secret when we're not around?

Were they raised by canines? Clingons?

T2: I always get alot out of your input around here too. You really have some good observations, especially when you get on a rant!