Over the Shock and GALing 6

[tryingtilDorR]

Thinker - I have been to Retrouvaille and from what I saw (but not expereinced first-hand) the most potential for movement is during the post-sessions. Don't be overly-dissappointed about the weekend. I feel like the weekend is the introduction, but the healing is later. They continually remind you that you took a long time to get where you are, so it is going to take a while to unbury the M.

I had a similar experience, but my W didn't blatantly disobey the dialog rules. She was just indifferent for the most part. I later realized she was heavily engaged in an EA at the time which had an impact.

However, the weekend was a turning point for me and gave me the added strength I needed to face down some pretty rough times over the past six months. It made me realize that our problems are not as bad as many others who had found a way to recover when the M seemed hopeless, which gave me a ton of conviction to see it through no matter how bad things seemed.

I was also able to communicate to her how sorry I was for my contributions to our problems, and also really understand them in a new light. I will never forget the weekend.

I got a similar answer from my W on the "why do I want to live" question, but my W was more subtle. She went on to describe EVERYTHING that brings joy to her life (except OM) and me and/or our M was NEVER mentioned. I asked her about this at a later time and she said "That should tell you something."

That told me how much of an uphill battle I was facing. It sounds like you are in the same boat. At the time I think my W was doing it because she was 'forced' and also wanted to hold it up as something she did to 'try'.

We ended up going to ALL post sessions, but she was going through the motions the whole time. It was week-to-week and she would not want to go at times but did anyway. After about the 4th post-session I discovered all the details of the EA and busted it. She had been talking to OM after the post-sessions for an hour+ even! I also noticed that the OM stepped up contacting her a lot more during the whole process.

Since then we have had our ups and downs but we are still 'separated' in our own house for now.

I am still glad we did it though, and some day you maybe as well. Was the timing perfect with her going through the EA? No. However, if she ever is willing to open herself up she may remember what we learned there and put it to use.

Also, I wouldn't be against going again if the situation improved and she wanted to work on the M - I have heard of people who did that.

My W didn't like doing the dialog either so we were kind of spotty on that - but again, she was involved with an EA most of the time, and the aftermath of busting it which triggered depression and lots of emotional arguments between us.


Hang in there. We did it and it didn't "Work" neccessarily, but she is still here and I am finally successfully detatching.

[Lotus]

Yes, she broke all those rules. But she broke an even bigger rule. She denied you your right to your own feelings. The right to one's own feelings, and the idea that those feelings have merit and need to be understood by the spouse, is the basis of the entire weekend.

I think you do need to dialogue with her. I would recommend finding the most softball question you can. Then do the writing. You hold back on your revelations, don't put yourself all the way out there. Then exchange notebooks and see what she did. If she broke rules, call her on it. Tell her that you will not discuss what she has written if it doesn't meet the rules. And don't show NO interest in what she has written if it does not conform to the rules.

What she is doing is called unfair fighting. It is equivalent to a boxer hitting below the belt or biting. The only reason to fight unfair is if the person believes he/she can't win a fair fight. Is her position so weak that she can't present it in a fair way? I

And we can't overlook what Trying is telling us above. Maybe she has OM waiting in the wings to have her fantasy life with. That is the most common reason for sabotaging the Retro process.

[Thinker]

And we can't overlook what Trying is telling us above. Maybe she has OM waiting in the wings to have her fantasy life with. That is the most common reason for sabotaging the Retro process.

I have thought about this - I am of course suspicious - but I have seen no signs of it. No red flags other than the hesitance to work on the m.

Her computer is (now) open and unlocked. She leaves her email open (and has given me the password). Same with her FB account and her phone. When I have snooped (not in a while to stay sane and trust) there has been nothing suspicious. She does not know that I have access to her phone records, and when I have checked there, there is no sign of any activity there since the incidents in June. She leaves her phone open, unlocked and lying around. Nothing suspicious there. She left her phone unused and in the room all weekend. She isn't going out as much as she used to.

I just don't see it.

What she is doing is called unfair fighting. It is equivalent to a boxer hitting below the belt or biting. The only reason to fight unfair is if the person believes he/she can't win a fair fight. Is her position so weak that she can't present it in a fair way?

I actually think it is.

Her actual position can be summarized as (circular):
- I can't have feelings for you (because of our history), so I don't have feelings for you.
- I don't have feelings for you, so I don't want to have feelings for you (because that would be unnatural - you can't force chemistry).
- I don't want to have feelings for you, so I can't have feelings for you. (I can't force myself, You can't make me)

She really keeps falling back on the argument which she has used since day one of the bomb.

---

Note: I do believe she has had a very difficult time in our R emotionally. We had a 2-year courtship which was largely long distance. Then the day after the honeymoon she moved to live with me in a new city, only to find she was married to a workaholic - away from her friends and having trouble finding her own new job. I was clueless and she never said anything, so I thought we were happy, but can now believe that she was truly unhappy from day 1.

Her main argument is that she believes that we are so different and so incompatible that she can never be truly in love and can never be truly unhappy - also a weak argument that falls apart if submitted to "Love is a decision", Forgiveness is a decision", "Feelings are neither right nor wrong", etc

[MrBond]

Sorry to hear about the weekend. Sounds like your W is pretty damn immature. It's like a teenager choosing not to do the assignment the teacher gives them. And she purposely does it to get her digs in.

I would suggest you not talk to her, but act as happy as a clam around her. That will infuriate her no doubt. But then again, why should she make you feel like crap? See her for the teenager she is.

[Kettricken]

Thinker, FWIW, I cannot even express how much I respect how you handled to aftermath of your anger, with both wife and kidlet. That ability to see the error -- not in what you felt, but how you expressed it -- and apologize freely ... don't underestimate its value. Seriously.

Hang in there, man. You are totally worth it.

[Thinker]

Thanks Kett,

I'm Learning.

[sandi2]

Hi friend. Long time since I've come around but I pass you on other threads all the time. Still haven't forgotten about you. I know you are still stuggling and trying to stand for your M.

I know you feel that things are not getting any better with your MR, but these other things are much better with you. The M may not be saved, and if that is the case (and I'm hoping it isn't), you have come through it a better person.....don't you think? Just look at what you said. This sounded great to me.

Personally, I feel better than I have in a long time. I feel happier, more self confident, stronger. I'm not walking on eggshells. I'm doing things for myself. My R with my kids gets better all the time.

[Thinker]

Thought message going out from me to Mrs. Thinker in the middle of the night:

"I can think of 3 reasons I shouldn't go file for D tomorrow (S7, S5, S1), but just those three. Can you help me think of just one more? Anything?"

[Thinker]

Question to the group:

FACT: My W tells me that the only reason she is staying in the M is guilt and obligation. Pressure from me because I love her and (in her words) expect her to love me in the same way. Guilt from the church. Pressure from her family and friends ("You are crazy, why would you want to leave?") She believes that and blames me for - "trying to trap her in the M". I think a big part of the issue is that she is feeling so rebellious that she can't "Make a decision to love"

FACT 2: If this is why she is staying, then I don't want her to stay. I would never want to continue a M long terms of pressure and obligation. I only want to be M'd to someone who CHOSES to be M'd to me.

FACT 3: When I tell her that she is then free to leave, she attacks me for "trying to throw her out" and "trying to force her to decide" "trying to make her the bad guy" etc.

So:

A) I want to free her of her obligation TO ME. I want to make it very clear that if she is staying with me it is purely HER CHOICE.

and

B)I am not going to offer her a feather-lined D (ie I take all the blame, do all the work, promise to remain friends and continue to support her financially and otherwise into the future. A D in my mind would be a purely business arrangement - she get's the "fair and normal" spousal support payment, we work out a 50/50 custody arrangement, she moves out, and we each move on with our SEPARATE lives.

How do I do that?

I have found that if I try to tell her this she does not believe "A" and sees "B" as an attempt by me to trap her in the M through threat of punishment and pain. Talking is not working.

Do I just have to file for D myself, and walk away?

[sandi2]

Do I just have to file for D myself, and walk away?

No, you don't do that. Those things she is saying is old script for a WAW who feels guilty b/c she wants to leave but knows that she doesn't have a justified reason so that makes her mad at you. She wants to leave without being the bad guy, but knows she can't. These are those things that you have to have a tough back and let it run off. It is "her" problem. Don't make it your problem.