I think I better come back on here and post once in a while. I seem to do better when I do, and so many of you have comments/advice that really help me along.
I talked to my H last night (as I always have to do, because he won't ever bring up anything wrong). It's been over a year since we have had sex, and I told him how I felt about that. Basically it has come to the point where I don't have the desire for him anymore, and he has the fear of what will happen if we do (he won't perform, or it will be bad, or I will be unsatisfied, etc.) So, we are in a gridlock. We agreed that most books or counselors would probably say to "just do it". Yet, we are both worried that it will make it worse. I have these "nonfeelings" for him and as we talked about it more I feel like I have built up some pretty good walls that make it hard to enjoy him. Some are legitimate, but they are walls nonetheless that would not be there if we had a normal sex life (i.e., the way he kisses is driving me nuts, the way he touches me is driving me nuts, etc.) We discussed some of these things but again I think they are only there because our relationship is so messed up right now.
After reading that you may think that we are headed for divorce. But, we are not. We both see the change. I would never have come to him with a discussion like that before...instead, it would have just built up, and then I would be ripe for an affair. The talking is good. Now we need a solution. Why can't we just take the jump? I don't understand how he can't be dying with the lack of sex...aren't men suppose to be like that? I mean, doesn't it get to a point where you just NEED it? I don't want the mushy stuff, I want to see him desire me and need me and want me..... Yet, the screwed up thing is...NOW...even if he did finally show that i don't think I would feel the same way back...so much time has passed now.
There is some update on the affair details. Guess who is now working about 3 blocks away from my house? Yep, OM. THis can't be helping. Do we move? Nope, we can't afford to. How do I know he is there? He called. I didn't answer phone calls for months for that reason, but I answered it one day and sure enough it was him. He didn't say anything other than wanting to know how I was doing and I think he wanted me to know he was working at this place. I remember saying how I was glad I didn't walk into his place of business without knowing he worked there. That would not have been good. He agreed. He sent me an email (he found the email that I don't give out somehow. It is also one my H can look at anytime) that said he could see that I have moved on and that he needed to as well. Of course I didn't respond. So, I think I handled it all well, although I'm sure many would say I needed to tell my H about the call and email. I disagree. Again, we have enough problems. If he looked at the email (which he can at any time) he would just see that the OM still thinks about me and that I don't respond to him.
So, that's where I'm at. Kind of at a standstill. Puppy, if you are reading this, you can see why I watch your life pretty closely. I know you and Mrs. Puppy had some of the same issues. I dont' want to separate, and either does my H, but I need to get to the point you and she are at. I don't want to go years without more than a friendship with my H. I mean, we do things for each other that just friends would not do, but you know what I mean. I do trust in God, but I also know God doesn't just do things for you, you have to work at things as well. I just don't know what to do to make things better.
I realize that we are the lucky few that have "made it", but we still have issues (consequences of ignoring our relationship for so long, and then me having affairs).
There are still triggers all of the time, and having the OM close by does not help. So, I wonder if it will ever go away. Is there anyone here that has had an affair that does not think of the old OM still? The crazy part is that I know that I am happier with my H and that he is a more attractive man and a better man, etc. so why dwell on it?? ...probably because I have not had sex with my H....until we do.....I'll have this problem. Agree?
COunseling maybe? For each of us separately? Together? Get the Passionate Marriage book? I keep meaning to do that, but haven't yet. I don't know? Any thoughts?
So, I think I handled it all well, although I'm sure many would say I needed to tell my H about the call and email. I disagree. Again, we have enough problems. If he looked at the email (which he can at any time) he would just see that the OM still thinks about me and that I don't respond to him.
No, he would see that the OM still thinks about you, that you don't respond to him, and that you don't tell your husband about it and that you're keeping secrets from him and not being completely transparent with him.
WDID, you already know the answer to this -- it's not the way to go. You need to tell him.
As far as me and the fetching Mrs. Puppy go, I know you say you don't want to separate, but I honestly don't think we would have had our breakthough without it. I even doubt that if we separated, but didn't initially agree to date other people, that she would have come around. Reading all of Gucci's and Robx's stuff over the past several months, coupled with my own observations of my wife's sudden "180" on the dating other people thing, has led me to believe this.
It's why I'm STILL wary about leaping fully back into my marriage, and giving up my own place. I've now been sleeping at my wife's house nearly every night, and she's (nicely) pressuring me to bring more stuff over and just commit to it, but I'm hesitant, and I've been sharing those fears with her in some pretty candid talks. We're both looking forward to our MC session this Friday -- our first with this MC -- and I think the woman can help us deal with these fears and insecurities.
I'm sorry I'm not more help on the sexual side of this. As a guy with a long-term (20-year) SSM, interspersed with periods of sexual and connubial bliss, I'm still at a loss as to recommend to others how to keep the latter going. If I ever figure it out, I'll let you know!!
I am going to recommend the Passionate Marriage book (with acknowledgments to oldtimer) and to suggest that MC combined with sexual therapy, as called for in the book, might be a good idea.
On the apparent low-desire of your H, I can relate to some of his anxiety, but on a level that I'm not too sure is typical or applicable. During the last year before our S, I was lower in desire than my now xW. I truly loved my W but because of the stress from work and the long hours, I was often too exhausted at the end of the day. I had the desire but it was so overridden by daily stress, that we never seemed to get together. We both seemed too busy and that got to be a bad habit. But more importantly, I was subconsciously feeling more and more alienated and I couldn't figure out why. I now know why, but not then -- I still trusted my W completely and assumed the depression I felt stemmed entirely from me. xW now claims I was LD throughout our enire M, but that is history revision by her. I think it began some time before S4 was born and began to grow steadily from then on. She began to put more and more pressure on me, making demands of me domestically, financially and maritally. In all avenues I felt like I was not measuring up to her demands. She placed demands that I was was not bringing in enough income, but at the same time complaining that I never helped out with the children or the house-hold duties (all not true) and then if I did not initiate sex with her by her schedule, I was SOL.
My blind, stupid reaction was to passive-aggressively respond by "not going where I was not wanted", if you know what I mean. In the back of my mind I was feeling like there was nothing I could do right by her, so it didn't matter. Our SL suffered greatly because we were hardly ever available for each other. And on those rare occasion we did ML, while I brought as much passion and animated rejoicing to our rendezvous (given the rarity of such occasions), she on the other hand seemed more and more distant and lifeless. She brought about as much ardor to our bed as a corpse -- I don't know what disturbed me more: mechanically performing with what I knew to be feigned passion or just lying there like a dead fish. (I apologize for the harsh characterizations, but that's the best way to describe it. If I look back at the woman I was married to up until about 2002 and compare her to the person thereafter, I would say they were two entirely different human beings.) I didn't just want sex, I wanted her -- all of her, mind body and soul -- and that was what I was not getting.
Is it any wonder why I was so deeply depressed and felt ML was pointless? But this is a fault of mine that I need to work on: if I feel there's no gain to some action, I tend to not do anything but wait and see if things improve before acting -- this obviously destroyed my M.
It's really hard for me now, in retrospect, to say just which of the two of us was really lower of desire than the other. For a long time after the bomb I took the blame fully. And xW used to shriek at me, post-bomb, that she couldn't believe how I could contain myself so well sexually around her (translation: she couldn't understand how I could not give into her demands since she withheld the "rewards" of our union so effectively.) She remarked that she thought I would make "a great monk". (My thought, without voicing it, was that I don't want to be a monk, I just want the passionate woman I married back, not this shrill unsatisfiable person.)
I guess what I am saying, Didi, is that in my case I was far from being low-desire, but I did contain my desires because I believed I had no real outlet for them, especially with my W. I felt stressed by everything in my life (not the least of which was xW) and that only promoted my further withdrawal and pulling back. I got tired of trying to meet her more than half-way and just gave up; I hunkered down, and hoped the storms would end. She took that as total rejection of her. I still loved her very much, but she chose to not see it.
What I didn't realize is that for her, sex=love, or more precisely, that sex is the measure she uses to sole gauge for whether a man loves a woman or not. Immature of her, I know, but it's something I never really understood about her until it was too late.
And yet she made the obstacles so difficult, raised the bar so high, that she made the task near impossible for me to achieve. It's as if she wanted us to fail (and that's something my IC had said). She shut me down. Either way, I still wonder, if there hadn't been this OM, would we have been able to turn things around.
Again, perhaps some form of C would help, Didi. And please read the book and see the line of thinking it offers.
And yet she made the obstacles so difficult, raised the bar so high, that she made the task near impossible for me to achieve. It's as if she wanted us to fail (and that's something my IC had said). She shut me down. Either way, I still wonder, if there hadn't been this OM, would we have been able to turn things around.
Sorry for the hijack, but NC, I suspect it's because of the OM that your X was acting this way, very critical and negative, etc. I think when they have EA/PA they take off the rose-colored glasses and view everything through dark,twisted ones. And some of it I'm sure helps to justify their actions and help with their guilt. I think you should never have any regrets; we've all made mistakes in our marriages as none of us are perfect!
Becca, I'm glad to see you post. I don't have any advice to offer, except maybe look into IC, MC, or a therapist which specializes in sexual issues? Why do you think you're not attracted to your H? And maybe he picks up on that and puts a damper on things for him? I know MWD also has a book she wrote on this, isn't it Sex Starved or something. Have you read that or would that be a good read? I'm not sure...
Hey hon, I am sorry that you are still having issues in that area. I can just go from my situation where my ex was always trying to manipulate me to make love without ever caring what I wanted or needed. It can become such a terrible cycle and the next thing you know...here you are.
I think counseling would be really helpful for both of you. Glad that you could talk about it but you have to work at it now. It may not be fanatastic the first few times but it will surely get better as you both allow yourselves to break down your barriers.
Oh and yes for at least my ex sex=love. I guess he never saw all the ways I showed him. I think that is true for a lot of men.
kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
LOL. If anyone was hijacking, Karen, it was me -- I got off on a tangent there. Just trying to offer Becca a possible perspective on this, but it really doesn't apply, I guess. She's done tremendous work trying to help her M, which is so very, very unlike my xW.
Pup- Thanks for responding. I knew you would say that I need to be completely transparent with him. And, if I didn't know my H, I would agree with you. He has said many times that he wishes he just didn't know about my affair, and whenever it somehow gets brought up he just looks pained. It would do absolutely no good, and he would wish I hadn't told him. He's not like you at all in the way that you needed to know stuff and what you were dealing with, etc.
You think we should separate when neither one of us wants to? It worked for you and Mrs. Pup because she kinda wanted to...right? I don't know. I know the whole Gucci/Robx thing and I see how it can work, but for me, if my H would start dating I would think, "See...I knew he never loved me."
I will be interested to hear how MC works for you both.
And...yes, when you figure out the sex ssm thing, let me know.
Nocode- Bless you for that post, and no you didn't go on a tangent, in my opinion. That helped me. I have the Passionate Marriage book in my hands now. Right after I read your post I left to get it. I think you may be right that I have rewritten history in our sexual past. I like to say that we NEVER had good sex, etc., but I know that is not completely true. HOwever, it went sour fast. If only I could go back to when that happened and got immediate help. It just seems so much worse now, 10 years later.... I would bet my H feels like you did with all of the demands and him not living up to them. He is also very passive-aggressive, and when he saw an individual counselor his counselor said he was. I think my H knows that he would not be getting my mind, body, and soul....I'm just not there yet...and I dont know how to get there. I want to get there!!! The "wait and see" approach is what my H is a master of, and what I did this past year, too. So, thank you for seeing I'm not alone with my h and my feelings. I'm going to read that book and then look into counseling.
Karen- I'm sure my H DOES pick up on stuff from me...but because it wasn't always like this and he is still the same way makes me so sad and angry at the same time. I thought about the SSM book...will look at that next. Thanks for checking on me.
Kat- I'm at the point where I think I'd like it if my H would manipulate me to make love just to know he wanted it. COunseling....step two. Thanks.
I'll second what No Code said. I went for well over a year without and it frankly didn't bother me too much. You just get to a point where you so condition yourself to not get it, that not getting it isn't that bad. Of course, late night Cinemax is a big help also. No pressure there.
I'm not sure what to say, but I just wanted to let you know I'm here supporting that you're doing the right thing staying with your H.
And I won't tell you I agree with Puppy that you should tell your H about the email. If you really want that emotional connection, how can you expect to get it when you can't tell him something like that? Yeah, he might be hurt by it, but don't you think it might be a chance for him to see that you're not holding anything back from him? Along that same line, do you think your lack of desire for your H is possibly because you're still punishing yourself for the A's? How can you cleanse your soul if you keep this all inside? Is your lack of desire there because you are afraid that if you do ML with him and it's not what it was with OM, you'll be disappointed and maybe your H is feeling the same way?
Maybe you just say to him, "OM sent me an email out of the blue. I didn't respond and I don't want to ever speak to him again, but I thought you should know so you'd know I'm not hiding anything from you".
Just a thought....
Last edited by Hope4us; 10/13/0912:58 AM.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
Pup- Thanks for responding. I knew you would say that I need to be completely transparent with him. And, if I didn't know my H, I would agree with you. He has said many times that he wishes he just didn't know about my affair, and whenever it somehow gets brought up he just looks pained. It would do absolutely no good, and he would wish I hadn't told him. He's not like you at all in the way that you needed to know stuff and what you were dealing with, etc.
Didi, those two thoughts aren't mutually exclusive. I too "wish I never knew" about my wife's affair.
I also with she had been truthful with me, and would still want her to.
Understand??
Just because you wish you didn't know something, doesn't mean you don't want your spouse to be transparent with you, ESPECIALLY once there has already been an affair.
I would recommend "Passionate Marriage" to *anyone*. The Bible, and PM, digested together. Changed. My. Life.
From personal experience, I think you have to accept that, after an affair or *any kind* of sexual difficulty or distance, sex will be weird. It won't feel right. It may feel outright awful, distasteful, nauseating, uncomfortable. For the first time, or the first *several times*. I can't say, but I think it might have something to do with the overwhelming weight and importance of the relationship in question. Not to mention any unfortunate history. My husband and I have surely had our setbacks in this regard, and if for whatever reason, it's been awhile, we don't expect the first time back together to be awesome. We do, from experience, expect the next time after that to be better. Don't be afraid ......
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
No pressure there.