What to do when H doesn't contact?

[25yearsmlc]

Well, L41,

You asked me to post to you so I am posting you a long one. But you are not really getting what I and some others are saying, are you? Sorry, here it comes...and yes I hear your pain and I know this hurts. But you must be stronger and more disciplined or you'll get nowhere...
I am not a mind reader but did not assess the conversation the way you did. "Second thoughts"? Really? I don't get that, so much as some reflections of his...and rather than seizing the chance to let him figure things out with a little validation from you, I see lots and lots of pursuit from you, (which is a challenge to him of his choices,) and I see you arguing with him, and repeating yourself...you could have managed the convo much better so hopefully you will next time.

Brevity of words in your conversations has a lot of power at times like these, especially with WAHs. Men tune us out when we women tend to overtalk about R's, which we do big time and L41, this is a great example of that. You kept the talk going. You repeated yourself and you disagreed with him. Never once said "you are right" or "good point"...so for him, if nothing is going to be different between you two, b/c right now your conversations still are not in alignment and you are not on the same teams...why would he think things would be better? The more you challenge his choices, the more you force him to defend those choices....remember that.

Here are some other pieces of the texts that I picked up on...

Telling him not to care about what others think, & claiming that you now don't care about other's opinions as you have made an inner change and a breakthrough of sorts, and are now much happier... ONLY TO THEN repeat compliments to your h, that you got from others -- which clearly does matter to you even now--and which undermines your previous claims that other's opinions do not matter...um, see the contradiction? And why repeat compliments you got from others in the first place? It sounds needy as if you want to convince yourself that these things are true...and you want what from him at this point? To Have him say "yes you are happier b/c you say you are, and you say others say it, but every time WE talk you seem to want to keep talking and needing me to agree with you while also saying you don't need anyone to agree with you but then saying "others agree with me..."

To me, Repeating the compliments of others to your h, in THIS sitch, is thinly veiled pleading on your behalf. "Others see my value, why won't you? Oh and I don't care if others value me b/c I value myself enough now & I'm healthy and don't need their approval, but guess what else they told me about me? NOW do YOU see my value??" I don't mean to hammer this point so hard but I really want you to get this and I really don't want to repeat it again, (no offense).

The more YOU say what others have told you about you...the less impressive it is as you are revealing your need to hear it and convince him of its' truth. Make sense?

Detach...let him go. He'll find his way back, or he won't. You cannot force or manipulate this situation, but I think you don't believe that down deep. You think if you say just the right thing or look the right way or behave in a specific pattern for a finite number of hours/days....then magically --he'll wake up and "get it"....if only YOU could do/say the right thing....But his choices/journey are not about you anymore. This is like a puzzle only HE can do, and you keep hovering over his shoulder trying to tell him where to put the pieces, WHILE also telling him to make his own choices. Back off, Please, you are not helping yourself.

Specifically, When he said "Whatever" in the texting, that means END THE TALK NOW--(BTW, "whatever" is listed as the most annoying word in the English language now) and imho the convo should not have been more than 3-4 sentences in the first place, if at all. When he said you should have thanked him for paying off the loan, why didn't you just do it? Why not say, "you're right. Thanks b/c it is a load off my mind and I know it's such a stressful thing to have these debts and now I don't have to worry about THAT ONE..." and get off the phone.

Were you more concerned about holding him accountable and forcing his responsibilities down his throat, than simply giving him an apparently needed pat on the back, and validating his obvious need for a compliment? No one wants to feel like crap after paying off a debt even if it is theirs. HE KNOWS WHO BORROWED THE MONEY but he also knows you cost him-- in the sense that he supported you, and whatever else he blames you for, so why not just say "thanks!"

Once upon a time, I valued being right so much that I lost sight of something very important: Being HAPPY is more important than being RIGHT. You must learn this if you are ever to be happy.

A huge aha moment I had, which relates: H had always paid the bills and each month would get aggravated and frustrated, etc. So then he left and I had to pay them all. There was money, usually, but still it's a huge hassle to pay them when you are not used to it and since h was gone, I couldn't ask him questions about some of them, and whenever we discussed money, we argued.

One day I mentioned a bill I wasn't sure about (right after a great DB session) and h said, "So now you get to pay the bills and see what I have been doing for 20 years and how much it sucks, so now you get to do it and now you know"...and I am SURE he expected me to fight with him. (Thank GOD I had just talked with DB coach and done my "Giving my pain and anger to God" exercises...)

So I said, "You're right, and I want to THANK YOU For paying the bills all those years b/c it's such a stressor, so thanks for doing it all this time..." and he was stunned into silence for a good 30 seconds...then he said, "you're welcome." End of discussion...and within a few months we were actually able to discuss money without fighting. Felt as if we were on the same team at least in some ways, tackling things we had to tackle, together...it was a building block in the creation of our new R.

As for M or R talk, the point you should be making is that things would be different if you were together again so why on earth argue about the past? Why do the same old same old if you are trying to prove that it'd be new and different or better?

What about just saying IF HE BRINGS UP THE R "H, I have regrets & If we had it to do over again, I'd do a lot of things differently. But since I've made some changes, I'm at peace and I wish us both well." THEN DROP IT.....he'll wonder what the heck happened and he may talk some more and you don't add detail for him to pick at, you keep it simple, That itself would be a 180, correct? He will likely be stunned into saying very little but you'll have planted a see, and maybe he'll wonder if he lost you OR if you're now the improved version/woman he always wanted you to be or once were...OR MAYBE he'll feel relieved that you two are at peace and you are letting him go...at first. But Trust me, they ALL have 2nd thoughts unless WE force those second thoughts away by validating their choices to leave by whining or complaining or by repeating our earlier behaviors & showing them our pain and anger...See, you are forcing him to defend his choices...b/c when we attack/challenge their choice to leave, we force them to defend it.

Another odd thing that struck me was the "downfall" comments by both of you. Please don't EVER say you were his "downfall" You just finished saying we're all responsible for our choices and not to listen to others, and then you talk about being each other's downfall......wth?

No one is someone else's downfall. Good grief. The blame game must end. [i]You have to end it and I don't mean for you to tell him that, bc if you stay on the message above and just LIVE IT, it'll BE the message he gets.
Actions, not words...


You don't often take the advice of those who are reconciled and I understand how hard this is. Some of it is terrifying. I had 2 d's still at home when h left and he'd visit HERE every few weeks and ask where he could sleep and I had to figure out what the heck to do.

My DB coach said to

"contrast wherever he is or goes,...with the warmth and love of home" and CONTRAST his negative images of you, the M, or your anger, with positive images of home life and the new improved you."

It was very difficult at times, like "Mother Teresa" difficult. But when he left for far away and would not visit as often even if he wanted to, then I began to make life plans for life without him.

2) I made an effort, per my wonderful God sent DB coach, to imagine my life without him BUT in a happy way. Detailed...planning a life that would be good even if he were not here for it.

God, that helped me to lose my fears and start to look forward to my new life. When h saw me, I was warm and happy and looking forward to whatever was coming my way and never told him this...NO WORDS like that. Just plans and optimism and NOT thinking of his presence in those plans...

After his first "mission/task" in the tundra was complete and he was able to take his blinders off and look around (Which detachment from me allowed him to do in the first place) THEN he seemed to wonder "Where'd everybody go? OH, crap, I am alone and in the cold/dark and they are together and enjoying life and taking trips and w is applying for a new job in another beautiful place that may not include me....ooops..." and he called that day, and every day after, at least once but usually a few times. He was lonely. Then began saying he was "begging" me to "join" him and sooooo the long road of "Piecing" began. Read the post I did on Orich's thread sometime after he went to Retrovaille. I know, you are in no position for Retrovaille yet but I discuss how to get there in that thread too. And on Stuck's I answered some other questions of what happened and how I used the DB coaching as best I could and the results were the desired ones. Didn't happen fast but good things rarely do.

Thing is, once you have restored your m and busted the div it becomes harder to post at length here. For one thing, h only wants me to assist others in a way that does not reveal overly intimate things about us here and I respect and understand this totally. Frankly I'm proud of his support of my posting here at all. It's why we made an extra donation to Retrovaille. Our society is not very supportive of those "working on their M's" so we want to put our money where our mouths are...so to speak. POINT is that you won't see as many success stories here b/c people who bust their div are now going back to their lives and M's and may not want to revisit their old wounds and refresh their memories of the pain they experienced.

So it skews your perspective. But in your sitch, there are a few good signs in the long run but few in the short run. Meaning, you two talk, which is good. He cares about your d. But when he said "whatever" you pressed on. Don't do that. More DB Coach advice--YOU should be the one to end conversations, not rudely but b/c you have places to go, people to meet, interesting things to do, etc. Don't initiate ANY contact unless it's about the kids/emergency or business matters and pre-plan those business chats so you don't ambush each other. Say, "can we discuss the loose ends on Sunday night at around 8? I only have 'x' amount of time but that should be enough" and keep on track. Don't talk too long. IF HE brings up R talk, listen....listen like a lover. No arguing. If he totally revises things then all you have to say is that you don't recall it that way or that you're sorry he does recall it that way but make damn sure it's an important thing you are mentioning b/c if you can, validate as much as possible. DB coach said "listen like a lover" and of all things that was among the hardest BUT most fruitful advice she gave me.

No blaming or escalations)...just stick to the SOLUTION BASED APPROACH of MWD, with "how do we fix this NOW?" (NOT "how'd you get us here?" OR "What happened in childhood that made me/you/us this way?" OR "how'd I get us here?") B/C that is in the past and therefore does not matter now. If the time comes for a future reconciliation, then MAYBE revisiting the past will matter then, but it cannot help you now. It keeps you stuck in the past, trying to figure it all out and it prevents you from forward movement.

L41, You will have a chance to reveal your changes to him b/c he has to see you at some points in time. So talk much LESS and listen more and be busy, never waiting, upbeat, moving forward. Any negative images of you will be undermined when you give him NO FUEL for those negatives and instead, undermine the negatives with the contrasting positive images you'll be putting into his head with the new you.

The "SECRET" to this is that there is no secret. He may not come back. All we KNOW is that you have to be the best woman you can be for a ton of reasons. It does increase the chances of his return, but does not guarantee that. All it does guarantee is that you will be the best woman you can be, and that means you will be a happy woman. There, that's the "secret"...
(( j ))