Over the Shock and GALing 6

[BigJohn]

Yep, I have. But it means nothing to her. "You are still the same manipulative person that you have always been. You haven't changed and you never will. It's all about you."
It's almost like she needs to keep herself convinced of that in order to justify her actions. It seems like she needs to keep hating me to make herself feel better about what she is doing.

Mine is more simple. She says she doesn't love me anymore, can't stand to be around me, doesn't believe or accept my changes (for her own reasons), and wants to go on with her life without me.

Antlers,

I was catching up on your thread and was sorry to see that your W filed for D. I hear the exact same stuff from my W. Like yours, my W also seems to be making a concerted effort to maintain a hatred for me and I've come to the same conclusion you have- it helps her feel "justified" and better about what she is doing. She does not like it when I am nice or considerate to her and never acknowledges anything nice that I do. Further, I've noticed that she seems to get annoyed whenever I'm looking particularly good- like in a suit and tie for church.

Another thing I recently called her on was her dependency on some of her friends and OM to help her find things to criticize me about. She actually searched the web until she found some crazy list about narcissists that she used as a basis to criticize me. My W seemed pretty excited about it. It was total baloney of course, which I also confirmed with my IC. It would all be such a joke if it wasn't so sad.

Hang in there. I know you are hurting, but you will get through this.

[Butterfly1]

Sorry for butting in on the thread - but I think Greek and GIMA are both right. The WAS does seem (at least in my sitch) to act out in an emotionally driven way - and that includes what Greek said about feelings of hopelessness, fear of lack of change, etc. We LBS's also need to feel compassion for these fluxuating emotions. I agree they can seem irrational and moody - but can't we also love them and have empathy for those mixed feelings?

For me, it's my own hurt that sometimes stands in the way of feeling compassion for my H. I get stubborn like - "hey I'm hurting too but I'm not yelling at you all the time about it." and "Just because you're hurting doesn't mean you should walk away". ETC. Ok, these are my feelings. But I need to see past my emotions to have compassion for H's - to see his pain that has been brewing. To try to see what he feels underneath the irrational behavior (anyone who follows my sitch knows he's been extremely irrational). To be sensitive to him in the ways I wasn't before. Sure, it may be too late. But this is still the best path to also let him go: with compassion.

It's really hard to feel the compassion for their feelings when they are acting out from those emotions by hurting us and our children. It's almost unbearable sometimes. But isn't love a choice?

[Fallgirl]

"It's really hard to feel the compassion for their feelings when they are acting out from those emotions by hurting us and our children"

Just tuning in here-read what Greek has to say too about WAS not blowing from a distorted perspective but really believing that their lowly opinion of the LBS is justified.

Its the rejection that`s so hard to deal with.So painful.Its hard to stay loving when you`re living with that constant rejection of you with every look,action, word.

Is that rejection though just their subconscious way of testing our changes?They hope we`ll yell back at them from our Old Me place so they`ll feel justified in ditching the marriage?And, better still, we might even tell them we`re through with them anyhow.

So, from my reading of Greek, at this time of rejection we really have to continue to show our changes in the face of it.

Its a tough station though.

[Eskimo Nell]

It's almost unbearable sometimes. But isn't love a choice?

Just to butt in and add my two cents worth, I used this quote about love on my WAH recently and he exploded! He said that love was definitely NOT a choice - it was there or it was not. You have it one day and you wake up the next, realising it is gone - and feeling mighty p'd off about it (of course, this is just our situation that he is talking about).

Just thought that I would throw it in to the mix to see if anyone else had experienced the same?

[antlers]

Do not let anyone walk on you. I don't advocate ever standing still while someone hurts you. Get out of the way! Absolutely. You can be compassionate and love WITH boundaries. And you are developing that skill. Don't give up. Even if she keeps walking away, Ant...you are learning a loving and decent way to deal with all of your brothers and sisters.

Hang IN there!
Greek

Mornin' Greek.

It's hard to know what type of mindset to have going into this. I have compassion for her, but the legal proceedings, I suspect, will get contentious. I don't want to get walked on. She seems done with me. I hurt bad, too, as a result. It disappoints me, with all of the DB'n that I've done, and with the real and lasting changes that I've made, that she has still decided to go ahead with divorce proceedings. I have developed skills that you mention, and I think differently about things now...all for the better. I feel like she has completely walked away from me now. I know that I'm hurting and emotions are playing on me...but it seems 'done' as far as she is concerned. It plain hurts.

[Fallgirl]

Yup, the rejection just plain hurts.I hope there`s a cure out there somewhere!

Thinker, I know this your thread. Hope you`re doing ok.

[antlers]

I understand where you're coming from Greek. It's a bit insulting to hear the substance of "WAWs must all be unhinged", repeatedly.

I think the goal of pointing out the WAWs less-than-stellar mental processes in cases like Thinker and Antlers is to warn that they seem to be (emotionally, if not logically) giving the adjudication on their worthiness as men/husbands/lovers into the hands of women who are not doing their most spectacular objective thinking (for what may be very valid reasons, but still).

It hurts me to see anyone abdicate authority over their own self-esteem. For emotional, empathic reasons, and also because I truly believe that any relationship NOT based on healthy self-love and self-acceptance is going to wind up twisted in all sorts of very subtle yet damaging ways (covert contracts, projection, etc.)

Like your sig line .... we're all muddling through this together.

When someone is very hurt, confused, lost, etc., they sometimes aren't able to think as rationally as they could if they weren't under such emotional stress. And making decisions while in this state of mind isn't always a good idea. I feel like she has made some bad decisions, in my opinion, under emotional duress. That's not to say that her feelings were not warranted...they were!

I agree with your statements regarding self-esteem and self-love. Unfortunately, those things take a real hit under these circumstances. Especially when one considers the mistakes that they've made that led up to the failure of the marriage.

[antlers]

What I am inartfully trying to say is that it appears that a WAS is guided by what they feel, their emotions, more than a well thought out plan. That's not to say the WAS does not have a plan. My perception is just that the WAS may be influenced more than most by emotion.

Now, that said, I am not discounting the LBS' role in getting the M to where it is. I am also not suggesting the WAS does not have reason to feel the way they do.

So, if I gave the impression the WAS is flawed somehow, that was not my intent.

It seems to me the dynamic b/w the logical spouse and emotional spouse changes one to the other throughout this process.

Agreed. Basically, I believe that her pain in staying outweighed her pain of leaving. Now though, after 8 months of separation...I am hurt by her decision and motivation to go ahead and divorce me.

[antlers]

Guys,

I whole heartedly agree with Greek. The shortcomings in the LBS helped create the problem the WAS believes is unfixable (maybe it is, maybe it isn't). So, the LBS has to make changes in areas they know they should.

Now, once the LBS makes those changes, the WAS may come back, may not.

But, and this is my original point, when the WAS says things like "you will never change," this seems to me to be emotionally based. Likely the result of a long time of frustration (valid or not). And it would seem it is common, some may say in the majority of cases, that the WAS refuses to acknowledge, accept or trust that those changes are for real while, at the same time, rush out the door. I understand the hesitancy not to trust the LBS, but I don't understand instances where the WAS is in a hurry to move to D.

I know that my shortcomings helped create, or even caused, the problems that we had. And I've done the work and made the changes. Not to get her back, but because those changes needed to be made.

I had hoped we could reconcile. She has taken that hope away from me.

She continues to say "you will never change", and the like. She has her own reasons for hanging onto that, and I don't know what they are. It's like she has to convince herself of that in order to justify the actions that she is taking. And I don't understand her decision to divorce.

[antlers]

But, and this is my original point, when the WAS says things like "you will never change," this seems to me to be emotionally based. Likely the result of a long time of frustration (valid or not). And it would seem it is common, some may say in the majority of cases, that the WAS refuses to acknowledge, accept or trust that those changes are for real while, at the same time, rush out the door. I understand the hesitancy not to trust the LBS, but I don't understand instances where the WAS is in a hurry to move to D.

L. S. U. OK, got that out of the way (GIMA)

WAS and "you will never change." Yep, we say it. I said it. And I thought I was right. So what is that? Well, we, like the LBS, suffer from a bit of hopelessness. Remember that WAS has been turning this dirt over in his/her mind a bit longer than the LBS is aware of. A mistake we WAS make is that b/c our awareness is so keen that the M is in deep trouble, we assume the STBLBS knows it, too. And on some level, the LBS MUST! But the WAS is mobilized and if there is OP - motivated.

But yeah - saying someone will never change is in error. I thought it about Coach. That is why, when I saw
C H A N G E .... it stopped me in my tracks. It took awhile to believe it, trust it, and now I'm working on depending on it. But it's a big deal for a WAS to accept that the change CAN happen, and IS happening.

Greek

But, we can change, and those changes can be profound. And it's painful that, despite the necessary changes, the WAS goes ahead with the divorce anyway.