Yes, this is the thing, A&K. Loving someone doesn't mean we approve of or will endure what they do. But my love for that person does not hinge on their good behavior. My teenage sons - didn't behave as I hoped all of the time. Even bailed one out of jail for under age drinking once. Still loved him and still love him and nothing he ever does will end that love and care. Unconditional. Now...how many times will I bail him out of jail? There are limits to what we should do - is it in his best interest or mine to do this again and again?. But whatever I choose to do for that child, my parent, my friend, my Husband, myself...I do out of love. Greek
Me45 H46 T25 M22 S21 & 19 D13 Separated and filed 8/08 Moved home 11/08
@Coach: She dropped her shield, let you know where she is vulnerable, and how did you respond? Are you there for her? It matters.
Frankly this strikes me as being an open question, since everything she spewed is orthogonal to anything else she's ever said. Why believe her this time? What about the ignore 100/50 rule?
Yes, this is the thing, A&K. Loving someone doesn't mean we approve of or will endure what they do. But my love for that person does not hinge on their good behavior. My teenage sons - didn't behave as I hoped all of the time. Even bailed one out of jail for under age drinking once. Still loved him and still love him and nothing he ever does will end that love and care. Unconditional. Now...how many times will I bail him out of jail? There are limits to what we should do - is it in his best interest or mine to do this again and again?. But whatever I choose to do for that child, my parent, my friend, my Husband, myself...I do out of love. Greek
And loving while letting go is the ultimate challenge...
If unconditional love really existed, we could say hey, you weren't there for me emotionally, physically, mentally, verbally, spiritually, etc. etc. etc but I still love you with all my heart.
That's why a WAS says, ILYBINILWY. I love you (philia Love) but I am not in love (eros) love with you. Why does a spouse walk away? It's actually a loving gesture to one's self to leave a marriage that is harmful to you. Don't the LBS here believe that they have contributed to a marriage that was less than "whole"? "Unconditional love" means I love you the way you are. If I love myself I have to face and accept my flaws and limitations. So I must extend the same love to my spouse, unconditonal doesn't mean perfect. "If she loved me then she would do that for me because I need that." That's not healthy.
Some of the advise I got here was to make it all about her. The women advised this and all the men were aghast. It's not how men roll, it's not business like. It is golden advice. If I take care of her needs, because I want to, it's important to me, and I understand the value of it then all my needs get taken care of. My whole list of objections, complaints, issues, worries, and yeah buts all magically disappeared. Loving someone without conditions (expectations) is a game changer. Isn't that something you would want?
You can't drop your shield if you are defensive, trying to figure out her thinking/feelings, trying to get the other to think like you, worried about getting hurt, or holding onto old beliefs. Yes, it takes two people to make a marriage. But it only take one to change the whole dynamic. Opening yourself up to give and recieve love takes more strength and courage than being a tough love giver. Women want to be allowed into their man's thoughts, feelings, dreams, ambitions, fears and passions. I think most men are afraid our wives won't love us if they could see all of our doubts and ideas.
Love is a verb then it is something I do. Love is a noun it is something I have, then I will nurture and grow it in myself to have and give away. If I have the choice between doing nothing, acting defensive or being loving, I hope that I will choose to be loving in most situations.
I wasn't shown "unconditional love" growing up. The first twenty years of my marriage weren't based on true giving. I am now aware and trying to practice love without expectations, meeting my wifes needs because I want to and being responsible for my own happiness. It was very hard for me to let go and embrace those concepts. I am very much the man of my home and very much a partner with my wife now. It works so I am going to keep doing more of it.
It's a choice I make every day.
Cheers, all you great DBers. I learn alot from all of you.
Coach
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
yes, Greek. and here's the thing. so many people don't draw the distinction between unconditional love and healthy boundaries. loving unconditionally doesn't mean that we become a doormat or leave our own needs behind (and that was a profoundly painful and difficult lesson for me to learn). it doesn't mean that we accept mistreatment or abuse. being a boundary-less doormat isn't wise or healthy; marriage just isn't a zero-sum game. it is, to me, the epitome of maturity and wholeness to grasp--and live--with boundaries, with forgiveness, and with unconditional love. what that looks like will be different for each relationship and each person, and perhaps takes a lifetime to develop (altho for some people fortunate enough to grow up in a family on the healthier end of the dysfunction spectrum, having the example makes it much easier to internalize). but it doesn't mean losing oneself in loving another.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
In theory, I am sure that is while WAS is in the "fog"...but how subjective is that?
SP- there is still no net. you are still on the tightrope. but you can handle any outcome. it seems you are on the verge of this coming to a head and it really hasn't even been that long. keep walking...who knows how it will evolve?
yeah, she's hurting over something that she knows she's caused but can't admit it yet because she has to get her mojo to a point of at least minimal capacity or the admission will destroy her
What you're seeing is a woman who's reaping what she sowed, and the enormity of that reaping is crashing down on her. Take the anger, shame, guilt, manipulations, feelings - roll into a tidy ball, and do a flying leap into the middle of it.
She didn't cause this. THEY caused this. Greek
My comment was only about her feelings - I agree it is a mutual crash. This is why divorce is so prevalent! It is not easy to work through the years of accumulated crap, and make it out golden on the other side.
However, I've heard colloquially that if you DO make it through, your marriage is like a rock?
Is that rule true? That's where discernment, experience, really listening come in with a side order of compassion, validation and empathty.
Understand what spew is: It's hurt, anger, frustration, confusion, remorse, guilt, (insert your favorite negative emotion) all being directed at you. Not how guys fight but it is good that it is being directed at you. It's going to come out - either on you and you have a opportunity to shine or she spews somewhere else. Reread her worry that you will be laughing at her - spewing with someone else.
It matters that you validate and address some of the fears, they are old fears dressed up a new way.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
@Greek: I'm just going to have to gulp and say this. You sound Cold.
I am cold. Right now I'm colder than a well-digger's arse.
Your wife is in life altering pain. She shows this to you. You come back with 'she's on the crazy train.'
You mean the way I was? When I was told, "Just get over it"? "Too little, too late"? "I have no feelings for you"?
Oh, come one, ignore 100% of what the WAS says, right? It's spew, right?
So why is the rule any different just because the content changes?
And incidentally "crazy train" is her construction -- she's the one who said, "Okay, I'm getting off the crazy train now." A week ago.
Her fears are:
Today. These are today's fears. They weren't yesterday's. They weren't 6 months' ago's. They weren't D-Day's. They're today's. How do I know they won't change tomorrow?
Especially when I get this (unresponded to, btw) in the in-box yesterday: In fact I plan to find someone to bl*w tonight, and I have just enough anger in me to bl*w it right off.
Well bully for her. But I like that she thought she was scoring some kind of point by mentioning it.
That's why we like it so much when the father of our children cheer us on in this dept.
Which I've done consistently, to the point of repeatedly annoying @Puppy Dog Tails for rescuing.
I would say your wife has not enjoyed unconditional love in her life. Wonder if she'll get it now?
She had it. This from 2 weeks post-Bomb: I know no one will ever love me like you did. I'm under no illusions about what I'm leaving behind. But love isn't enough for me anymore.
Yet in April and in May, during the up-to-that-point worst of it, I told her, "I love you. In spite of everything that's happened, I love you. And you can't take that away from me. You can take the marriage -- you can take that. But you can't take what I feel."
Remember that? And what was the response here? Pursuing! Rescuing! Backsliding!
She's had unconditional all along.
So now the answer is, "No." Conditional love? Maybe. But not until she shows me something. Something besides contempt, at any rate.
she's been pulling the financial wagon in your family, and even THAT won't be honored.
You have been reading these threads, haven't you? At what point has ANYTHING she did not been honored to her? At no point.
It's her turn now. She can GAL. She can 180. She can become the person only a fool would leave.
At this point, though, it's the same old story. She's mellow, she wigs out; she wigs out, she attacks. Like a sine wave -- up and down, up and down.
