Old "newbie" needs help FAST!!! Please respond!!

[etrain]

Not sure if this was the right approach or not. But after she said yesterday morning: "I have no love left for you, no warmth. The changes are too little too late." I said you know what if you have no intention of really trying, don't go. If you are already gone in your mind and if you have any compassion left for me, don't string me along. Trying to put on a show for your family/friends that you tried. This weekend shouldn't just be a checklist for you to say, I tried and it didn't work.

Last night she said that she needs to think about for a couple days and she will let me know. I guess by the end of the week, I will no one way or the other if she truly wants to give it a try.

Maybe I am pushing things too much. Maybe I should have kept a low profile and just went. But I felt if she didn't really have her heart into it, it would just be her checking it off a list.

Almost exactly what I'm going through right now. My W seems to be "faking" her way through MC without giving much effort or having much hope. I got the "don't love you that way anymore" and "no warmth" too. I haven't come to the point of issuing an ultimatum yet but I'm having the same doubts you described. I think she might be going through the motions of MC just so she can say she tried & look like the "good guy" in the end.
In the meantime, I am being strung along & basically tortured. I wish you the best & applaud you for having the courage to confront your W. I'm not at that point yet.

[billclay18]

There is part of me that wants to burst out “If you want to leave and you are so miserable….LEAVE and STOP TORTURING ME!!! Get it over with. You wanna be so independent then leave and then you won’t have someone who manages every detail of your life…JUST LEAVE” Honestly, I think that him leaving is almost a good thing because maybe he has to leave to realize what he’s got. I’m not giving a chance to miss me or her or anything because I still take care of EVERYTHING.

Then do it. Not in these words, but show him the door.

[ginab1966]

D:

I'm now feel we've conversed enough that I can be on a "first letter" basis with you. LOL

These are my thoughts. I knew that my husband wasn't rip roaring about going to Retro but he said he would go and I only tested that commitment once. My reasoning was that I as willing to try anything and Retro is something that is so different that it really does have a great success rate. Yes, you are pushing. I know that's not what we are supposed to do and you know it too. However, that said, I know why you are pushing. You just want the pain to end. You want a happier life with a partner that wants to be in the marriage and values you as a partner. Now you see how to become a good partner and recognize your issues and see what a good marriage is made of. To me, it's honestly exciting thinking about what my marriage could be if we both work at it and let the healing begin. It's so frustrating to be with someone that is only focusing on the negative. I said to a friend in CoDA the other day "H doesn't see the blessing that's right in front of his eyes. He has a wife that loves him unconditionally a beautiful daughter that thinks the sun rises and sets on him. We have a home and food in the refrigerator. Yes, there is stress about bills and such but that's just life." I want him to get out of his fog so he can see the blessings. But i can't do that for him...I want to...but I can't and there in lies the huge hopeless feeling and frustration.

We, the ones left to GAL and DB like crazy, get to a point where we say enough already. I just can't take this. I"m having a difficult time weighing the issue to stay and be completely committed with going so that I don't suffer more emotional abuse. Right now, I've chosen to stay and fight for my marriage by detaching as much as I can. It's hard because so may people tell you to leave and that you are worth more and you don't deserve this, yadda yadda. Maybe in my head i do believe I deserve this. Maybe my self esteem issues are getting the better of me here and I can't see the truth of the matter. I guess it doesn't matter....I am still committed but I have to be committed and detach with as much love as I can. These spouses have to know that they can't have their cake and eat it too.

My take for you on Reto is to just go if she will go. If she even says she's going to check it off her list, go anyway. What if it works? What if you don't go and then think "What if..." It's not that far away. It's 3 days of your life. You've been in the fight a long time...what's a few more weeks of trying. That's my 2 cents.

My hope is that some day you and I post to each other and are peacefull where we are..wherever that is...in or out of our marriage. Peaceful would be a nice place.

Just breath, think of your kids and do your best to have a good day. I'm sending good thoughts your way.

Gina B

[d1adsl5a]

Thanks Etrain. Not sure when this all started for you, but it has been 5 months for me. You will hear that isn't all that much time in a 15 year marriage. But, you can only take so much Limbo before you crave a path. It is odd, but you somehow need to keep moving forward. The changes I made are permanent. She sees it and knows it. So, I guess I have come to the crossroads. I can't "hope" my way out of this anymore. I believe that I will at least get closure for now which will help me finally detach. I don't think you can until you come to the conclusion in your head that it is finally over. Then maybe you get some peace. Hell, I broke down yesterday in tears. First time in about a month. Sometimes the gravity of the situation hits. You let it out and you are able to move forward the next day.

My Wife cancelled MC after 3 sessions. She has a very Italian family that all thinks she is crazy. Nothing has made her waver in her convictions.

Good luck on the next few months. This road is the hardest one you or I will ever travel. I know that I am in the middle in middle of this fight. The first few months are pure hell. Find some good friends that don't mind hearing you talk about it. Besides this site, my 3 sons, it is the only thing I found that gives me peace.

[Lotus]

Gina,

I understand now why your H is not on medication for bi-polar, and why you tried Retrouvaille without treating the bi-polar problem first. It seems to me that while he doesn't want to do the post sessions, and he doesn't want to do regular dialoguing, if he decides to have a big conversation with you regarding the relationship, you should insist that it be done in dialogue format. My H doesn't like to dialogue, and we stopped doing it regularly almost as soon as we finished the Post sessions. But, when we have a problem, we use dialogue as a way to resolve it. In my opinion, there is no reason to throw away what you learned over the weekend. It is still a useful tool even if you only get it out for the big jobs. And, you don't have to wait for him to drop the bomb on you. You can tell him, "I have something I want to discuss with you. Get out your notebook and let's discuss it the way we did at Retrouvaille."

[d1adsl5a]

Hey Ginab. I had posted something earlier. Not sure if I hit the submit button because I can't find it. I guess if I had to do my screen name over again, I would have used my real name, Danny. Not a passcode from 5 years ago..

You sound different today. You sound more in control of yourself. You sound like you have found your sense of self again. Just from a few posts ago when you used the term feeling tortured..I know that feeling. As you said, you just want the pain to end. You do sound stronger today.

I thought I was getting past things. Yesterday, I found myself tearing up at my son's football practice. A 40 year old man, here I am crying again. Where the hell did all these emotions come from..? I think it is because we do love our spouses, our family unit. And it kills us that they are ripping it apart and can't really see or care who they hurt.
I took my youngest to play tennis tonight. It just sucks that if we divorce, just doing simple things like that when it is her turn to have the kids makes me so angry that she isn't fighting for this. I am like you, tired of DBing, GALing, all that stuff. Sometimes you just want closure so you can start moving forward again. It sucks that they just can't see the blessings right in front of them. We are willing to make changes for them. And I,you have. But if they don't love us, have no emotion for us, we can't change that. I thought I could. But nothing in 5 months has changed that. When she said last week, I can hug you as a friend. All I wanted to say was F....Y...But I held back on that one.

Today she invited me over to her moms for her birthday thursday. She said, "I can come". What am I...a dog. I said first did you decide on retrouville? I get I was busy at work, I didn't decide, if you can't wait for an answer cancel...

I stood my ground and said this is your decision. I will not make it for you. I also said that I deserve more respect from you. The last five months I have shown nothing but love for you.

I didn't get a response back. But I came home, acted happy, did homework with the boys and played tennis with the youngest.

I just want her to be the one to make the decision. I want her to want to go. Just like your husband, she is reluctant to go. If she doesn't want it, I am afraid she will shut down like your husband. So I that is why I am pushing. She knows that if she doesn't go, it is over(at least for now in my head). I can start to move on--I guess that is detaching..

Take Care GinaB. Hope you had a good night.

[ginab1966]

Oh Danny Boy….(sorry, couldn’t resist)

I appreciate the fact that you think that I sound “in control” of myself. At first I laughed at that but then I thought…”No, Gina, you are in control of yourself. Not in the way you want to be but you really are in control”. I have so many ideas, thoughts, scenarios, what-ifs, questions, etc, roaming around in my brain that I feel completely coming part at the seams. I also have so many things that I want to say to H. However, it’s all R related and I’m not supposed to talk about any R related stuff, right? I mean, that’s the deal right? No matter how much I want to say to him “Ok, so what the f* are we doing here. Are you in, out, hanging on to save enough money to move out and then leave at the drop of a hat? Are we going to live like this the rest our lives? You tell me cuz I haven’t a clue what’s going on and I’m just waiting on you. Heck, it’s open enrollment at work this month and I don’t even know if I’m supposed to be getting my own insurance or if you’re keeping me on yours. In light of the fact that you speak about 20 words to me all day, these seem like plausible questions”…I can’t say that, right? Know what I just realized????? I’m really angry. I just reread that and feel the sarcasm and anger in it but I also feel the underlying panic and helplessness too. I don’t sound so in control of myself anymore do I?

I’m traveling overnight on business and called to check on DD who has a really bad cold and double ear infection, etc. He was so quick and cold on the phone. Ya know how we are supposed to be the first ones off the phone or to end a conversation? I don’t get the chance because he just about get’s goodbye out before he hangs up the phone. He just spits out info and hangs up. What do I do with that? He rarely calls me except to ask if we have enough money for him to buy this or that. That’s a long story right there. Believe me, I don’t want him to call me and ask me that question EVER. He’s just completely out of touch with our finances and when I ask him to be a part of our financial life, he just says he doesn’t want to but then blames me for controlling it all. Yeah…whatever.

It’s really hard to do this DB’ing with them in the same house. Sorry if I’m being personal but are you guys sleeping in the same bed? We are. It’s soooooo hard. I want him so bad some nights that I’m almost shaking. He’s my husband and I love him. I still desire him and I’m attracted to him.

BTW…please don’t feel bad about crying. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. We are going through hell. You cry in hell, it’s allowed…encouraged even. I started crying in Bradley airport tonight when I saw a family going on vacation. My daughter wants to go apple picking. I want to take her but I’m almost certain he won’t want to go as a family. So, I’ll take her alone and have to explain why daddy isn’t going…AGAIN. I don’t even know if I’m supposed to ask him to go according to DB rules. I mean, if it’s my daughter, am I supposed to give him an opportunity to be with us as a family. No, I don’t think so. It’s sort of like being unpredictable….he would NEVER imagine me planning and taking her by myself without including him. But, I know him very, very well and if I did that and didn’t tell him, he would absolutely do that back to me and if we are going to start taking our daughter out separately on different days, that feels too much like visitation.

Oh yeah, and the whole thing about hugging you as a friend. I sometimes get that kind of a hug and it makes me want to puke. It’s so hurtful and I know that when my H says hurtful things, he does it with this smug arrogance that I just simply don’t get.

Have you read a book or heard of the book by Dr. James Dobson..it’s called “Love Must Be Tough”. It’s a very bizarre approach but it seems plausible. It’s all about the idea that you need to let the “caged” partner out. Give them the out and let them know they are free to go by writing this letter to them and he outlines what to say. He says that after that your job is to just GAL and take care of yourself and let the cards fall where they may. It’s got a lot of the DB principals but it says it’s better to just lay the cars out on the table and see what’s what rather than let this slow leak happen. Then the guy BillClay18 that posted above you on this post….he even recommends it. Sometimes I think that’s what I need to do…just tell him to leave….but then…I start to think, like I did on the plane tonight, that will get you what you don’t want..because he will walk..no doubt. He has no money to leave though so it’s a bit more complicated than the average sitch.

So have you decided that if she doesn’t go to retro, it’s over? Have you communicated that to her? I think it’s fair for her to have to give you a decision and answer. I get your reasoning on that. Then again, maybe I’m not the best one to be bouncing it off of. LOL I’m probably the worst DB’er in history. I’m thinking of a Coaching call. It’s ridiculously expensive but I’ve spent more on a few pairs of shoes. LOL

Well, I’m sorry this turned in to a novel. I was just trying to kill time and somehow knowing that you and others will read this and understand gives me a peaceful feeling. Also, I just want you to know that you are not alone. I know the pain of the idea of sharing your child’s activities and Halloween. I’m agonizing over what happens to Halloween when you are divorced. How do you share that? Do you both go? Do you switch years? Does that mean that I would actually NOT go out trick-r-treating w/ her. NO, that would just never happen…NO. I mean, I think of these things. Doesn’t he? No, I don’t think WAW’s think about these things. They aren’t seeing the forest for the trees. They are just thinking of short term fixes. I’m unhappy, so I’ll leave. Hell, I DID IT. I know what they are thinking. I’ll regret that decision for the rest of my life..but I did come back. I was only gone a few weeks at the most and while I was gone, we were still having sex, etc. I was never as detached as he’s become. Well, I could go on forever.

I hope you had a goodnight too Danny. Take care…Gina B

[d1adsl5a]

I just sat back and had a sarcastic laugh..You have no idea how similar our spouses are...

-Part of her issue with me was that I was controlling with the finances. I can't tell you how many times over the years I have asked her to learn about the finances. It wasn't until this happened until she finally agreed. Last two months our visa bill was $5,000. I asked her what do we do now that we have spent more than we(I) bring in every month. I wanted her to see that I wasn't controlling, I was trying save our ass so we have money to pay for vacations, college, etc...

I think I am the worst DB'r in history. At least you are holding back. I find myself asking the R question every few weeks. You would think I would have learned by now, don't ask the questions you already know the answer to. However, I find myself asking those questions and getting the I don't love you anymore still..I must have felt smaller than an ant when she said I would hug you as a friend.

I am the same way about wanting my Wife so bad. You are not being personal. I can't sleep with her anymore. I would wake up every night at 3am and just start thinking about her, our situation. Hoping it was all a bad dream. Falling asleep was even harder. So two months ago, I went to the couch and have slept great ever since. Ambien does help though...It really is my way of being separted as well. If my W doesn't want me, I am not going to sleep in the same bed with her.

I haven't read that book, but I think I will buy it tomorrow. Because I am prepared to say that I will accept that your decision is to end our marriage if she doesn't go to retro. Still haven't gotten my answer yet if she is going to go.

I actually have my speech prepared:

-I will take you not going as your official answer that you want a divorce.

-I can never forgive you for what this will do to our sons. How this will change their personalities and souls. You will have to live with that guilt to till the day you die. They will understand one day.

-From the moment you told me 5 months ago, you haven’t tried. You may have worked on yourself, but you never gave me a chance.

-You have hurt me and them more than you will ever know.

-I hope you find what your looking for and that you find it was worth it by shattering our sons lives as well as mine.

-I would suggest we put the house up for sale sooner rather than later based on how long it will take to sell.

-I will not be leaving this house.


Hey at least you have live conversations on the phone. My wife won't call me at work anymore. If there are any questions about kids and schedules, she will text me. Text me? What am in highschool? Today when she did that, I called her and said it is ok to call me. I did beat her to the punch today and said goodbye and hung up first..

I did spend the money for the db coach. Paid for 3 sessions, only used one. Not sure I recommend it. We are past many of the first stages. It was alot of focus on what to do that gets them to come closer to you, etc...It helped a little. Not sure if the $400 is worth it for where we are at right now.

The family thing. My wife won't do anything with my friends or family. They have judged her...Last week my middle guy said he was sick when I had the kids with me as I do most weekends when my wife is out(She is out tonight, tomorrow night usually till 3am). When he spoke to her on the phone, he suddenly got better. I am trying to do more things if possible with her and the kids. The are starting to get we do things separately with them alot. Tomorrow is her mom's bday. She said, I can come. What am I a dog. Still not sure if I am going yet. I said I deserve more respect than that.

The holidays--Haven't even thought about that. Although my Wife said a few days ago, if we did divorce she wouldn't file until after the holidays. What a saint....

Will let you know when I get my answer..

[ginab1966]

Hi there...it's Friday night...how are you hanging in there? The weekend's here and DD is sick with double ear infection and fever and just plain miserable. I've been away on business the past few days in Pittsburgh and felt so guilty about leaving her. I got to spend the whole evening with her though, dinner together just her and me at the table. She dined on fruit salad and mashed potatoes and I had eggs and toast (it's cold here and I like b-fast for dinner on cold nights). Then bath time and now she's tucked in watching Stuart Little to fall asleep. She is just the most precious thing. Guess what? I go to CoDA meetings on Friday nights usually and she says to me the other day "Momma, why do you go to meetings alot?" and I said "Honey, momma goes to these meetings so I can be the best momma I possibly can and the best person I can be". She looks me dead in the eyes and says "Momma, then you don't have to go to those meetings and leave me home anymore. You're already the best momma EVER and you can only be you momma..You are just fine the way you are" This out of the mouth of a 4 year old. She saves my life every day. This is why I am committed. This is why I fight for the love of a man that mearly tolerates me. She deserves it.

I hope you are hanging in there and she's not being too disrespectful to you. I read something in one of my CoDA books on the plane last night...."We teach people how to treat us". When I accept disrespect, I get disrespected. When I accept being treated like I"m an old shoe that's being tossed aside, I become that old shoe. That doesn't even mean we need to confront them. We just have to change the dynamic. Become lovingly detached. Start to let go of her by grabbing on to yourself. I'm going to try this weekend and see if I can.

Have a good one. Peace to you and the kids...Gina B

[d1adsl5a]

Thanks Ginab. Well sitting home on a Friday night as well. The wife passed out on the couch after a few glasses a wine. We were watching the office that I had recorded. Laughing together. Almost seemed like old times...

Not sure if is was right, but I didn't go to her mom's for her birthday. All I needed was for my W to just say I'd like you to go vs. You Can Come.. I didn't and I felt good standing up for myself for a change.

Well I waited all week for an answer about going to Retrouville. On my way out to work this morning after the kids left for school, I said you still don't have an answer. She said she needed to think about it still this weekend Is divine intervention supposed to happen this weekend?? I am taking my sons to the Notre Dame football game in South Bend, Indiana. We are from the Chicago area. I think we can say that on this website.

Strange comment she made tonight. She said to our sons, it is nice that Daddy takes you every year to the game. That is a nice tradition you have with him. It almost felt like a send off... She is going away for the weekend with a friend of hers that is an angry woman who never got married, who thinks she should get a divorce. Great support group..I am not holding my breath I guess.

I got some perspective today. I went golfing with a friend of mine to take his mind off his daughter this afternoon. About 6 months ago, she complained of a pain in her leg on a tuesday. They took her to the hospital. By Thursday, she was diagnosed with bone cancer in her leg that had spread to her lungs and had a 10 percent chance of living. If that doesn't give us perspective, I don't know what does. As we were talking today, he told me that his parents divorced when he was 12. I have known him for 15 years and he never mentioned it. He said that until he was 21, he was a complete mess. Didn't care about anything or anyone. The divorce affected him so deeply. I still can't believe how selfish our spouses can be. That they can't see what is right in front of them.

That has to make you feel so good what your daughter said. You sound like a great mom. I can't tell how good it feels when my sons just say I love you dad before they go to bed. It just kills me to think as I am sure it does you what their lives are going to be like if there is a divorce. Their little souls will never be the same. They are too you young to have to endure this kind of pain...But our spouses really can't see that can they. They only see their happiness..

Anyway, I will let you know how it goes as soon as I get the answer...

Take care and have a good weekend.