Newcomer hurting badly

[Steve McQueen]

as I see my male friends get more affection from her then I do.

Start Snooping!

About 3 years ago my wife was upset at me ... At that time she was also calling an old male friend who lived a distance away.

She already has the propensity to search out emotional connections elsewhere. You'll find that it is not uncommon for a wife to get a little attention from another man and this leads to a completely new outlook on her life and her sexuality. It is here that the fantasy begins ....

I know that situations vary but I will ask anyway. How long do WAW's withhold sex from their H, if they ever return to it again?

you need to start thinking about other things. things other than your wife for a while. Do you belong to a gym? How many times a week do you bench press? Its time to start supersetting!!!!!

We have not been intimate in at least 6 weeks

that aint nothin'

[Steve McQueen]

Ok. Just a not to say i blew it. I let my heart overrule my head. I texted my wife to say Hi and ask how she was. I finally got a text back which was a very simple response. No more, no less. Obviously she does not care if I contact her or not and, as you all have mentioned, she probably does not want me to contact her. Why do I keep trying to think she may care. This sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!

naw. when you totally blow her off like she is you. she'll notice and question.

If as a result of my 180's my WAW asks me why I have been so distant with her, what is an appropriate response?

What is going to be your response?

[daybyday]

Decoy, so sorry to hear of another loving spouse being put through this sh##. I went through a very very similar situation as you about 2 years ago. I heard the ILYBINILWY speech, distant cold, the whole nine yards. Follow the advice of all. You need to snoop. Otherwise you will just torture yourself wondering. I did my fair share and found out at least an EA. I had a lot of chnging to do as far as she was concerned, but she still loved me. Your W probably still loves you so that is a great sign. You, you, you. You have got to work on you. I know its cliche and everyone says it, but DO IT. Do the 180's. Anyway, there is hope and it sounds to me like you have a great chance to win her back. I won mine back about a year and a half ago, and she gets more affectionate every day. Hell I even got a text the other day that said...I luv you i luv youetc until page was full. You dont realize how much the little things mean. The touch of her hand on your arm when she sees you. etc etc. We never separated. Lived in same house but felt like a live in separation. But now we are back in love. I think one key is LISTENING and hearing. Look her in the eye and shut your mouth. You might be in limbo for a while, I was for about 6 months, but it will pay off. We bothe attended MC together during limbo, but she admitted just going through the motions. So its up to you to follow db as best you can. It will be the roughest stretch you will EVER go through but you will get there. I'm not on hear much anymore as it tends to bring up bad memories, but I'll check back every once in a while. Sandi and PDT are great. They kept me moving forward. Take all advice in but weigh it all before acting. Good luck. It WILL happen.....

[Decoy]

OK. So I had an in depth R talk with my wife today. Those of you who have given me advice on my situation, I have some additional insight for you now so I am looking to see if there is different advice for me now. I need help with new/ additional 180's now.

In our talk she told me that her entire falling out of love with me, her inability to touch me, etc. has to do with the hurt I have caused her for the way i have treated her verbally in the past few years. She said that my verbal abuse chipped away at the love until there is nothing left. She does not even know if she wants to try to repair the M. She is seeing an IC now and wants to see what happens. In speaking with her it is clear that there is no love left for me.

I do not want to speak bad about W or try to rationalize my verbal assaults on her. I will say that the things I said were out of extreme grief related to the death of my dad, being told by W that I had held her back for years, what i perceive to be an EA and other mistakes I believe she made. I do believe that some of my insecurities which she hates stem from some of her behaviors/ comments. Her mistakes, which are common in every marriage I am sure, however do not justify how I treated her. I have made mistakes but I am working on changing as I know I was wrong (She wants to know why I didn't figure it out before as i was grieving and she does not understand fully why I grieved).

It appears though that my changes may be too little/ too late. She does not "trust" me enough to spend time with me, be alone with me, go on a date, etc.. She has no interest in me whatsoever. She wants me to change and give her time and then she will decide how she feels about the trying to work on the M.

I have never cheated on her nor could I. She has said that, if I had, there would not have been a second chance for that. Right now I am not sure that there will be another chance anyway.

The frustrating part is that none of my insecurities have any merit to her. She is tired of reassuring me and fells like she has had to do it our entire message. She sees me as weak and needy and cannot support that anymore. I thought each partner has strengths and weaknesses that the other supports. Well, she has, but has become tired of doing so and as she says, she will not do it again.

Again, I think I could paint a picture where you may understand some of my issues better than she can at this point but I am not here to tear our M down any more that it already is and I do not want to speak badly of her. as I said, I am trying to own my mistakes and errors.

The bottom line is I hate how this has ended up, I hate wondering if my family will be torn apart, and I hate feeling like I am the only reason we are in this mess.

Since she cannot care about my feelings anymore, where do i go from here? Any prior experience with trust issues due to anger/ verbal abuse in which an EA/PA are not involved?

Thanks daybyday for your thoughts. I felt like I needed to add this "wrench" into the mix to see if there was still any hope or not and what ideas can be shared to get my onto the right path.

I felt like I was standing up for how she has hurt me in the past but it ended up being much different. I want to fight for my marriage and to provide a great environment and example for my kids but it appears I may not get that chance. The decision is now in her hands.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Decoy,

Everything your wife is saying is said by probably 75-90% of cheating spouses. It's, as they say, "script." It's called re-writing of marital history.

However, it's also said by people who have legitimate complaints about verbal and emotional abuse.

Only you know in your heart to what extent her accusations have merit; we only know by what you tell us on this message board.

That being said, again -- were it me -- I would want to know that IF I worked on all of my own issues, if my wife would be open, emotionally, to my changes. And it's a physiological fact that a spouse in an active affair (emotional or physical) will be "blocked" almost entirely from even your most sincere changes.

My advice would still be to find out what you're dealing with, and then proceed accordingly.

Puppy

[ClingingToHope]

I know that situations vary but I will ask anyway. How long do WAW's withhold sex from their H, if they ever return to it again?

My wife and last ML in June 2008. I moved out in May 2009. I was going out of my mind. But after going through a Marriage Rebuilders class I can see why. I was treating her like a pop machine. Every time I did the dishes, or asked about her mom or went out of my way to take care of the kids so she could stay late, I was treating it like, 'hey, I put my quarters in, where's my S.'

[sandi2]

Clingingtohope, thank you, thank you thank you! I could not have said that better. Every wife knows her H and can read him like a book when it comes to the matters of sex. So many H's do & think exactly what you have just said......and the W knows why he washed dishes or kept the kids or whatever.....she KNOWS he expects her to have sex with him and she resents it very much! I wished every H would read your post. Thank you.

[Fightin4mywife]

Clinging, so well put. My wife has suggested this for so long. She told me numerous times that she felt like a harlot. But I never could see it. It never made sense to me. Men caught up in self-centeredness just act like pigs. Or perhaps dogs would be more appropriate.

We use the women we love. We damage them and destroy their esteem and security. Then when they pull away we stand there like a kid being denied his candy.

My w moved out of the bedroom in 8-08 and we separated in 3-09. I can't stand it but I have learned the proper respect for my wife and that provides some peace about it. I miss our intimacy but it is not so much a focus anymore. My heart longs for real, unconditional, agape love, not just s. I know when my wife really feels loved, the s is unbelievable. Hope to be there again one day.

Best to you in your journey.

jim

[sandi2]

Hi Decoy. This is a long post, but there are several things I would like to address. First, you wanted me to tell you more about what an EA is. I know I go around the long way to tell things, but that it is just how I am, so hope you will bear with me.

Most women will endure things for a long time when she loves that person. Although the posts from most LBH's sound as if they have never done a thing wrong in the M......that usually is not right. If the H had never done anything wrong, then more than likely the W would not be so unhappy. (Which you have admitted in your case.)

In most cases, she has gone for years that her emotional needs have not been met by her H. She has tried to tell him that she is not happy and what she "needs" from him......but he doesn't truly hear her and he doesn't think she is "that" unhappy.....so he goes about life as he always has. As time passes by, little by litte her loving feelings for her H begins to die out. I think she reaches a place that she feels as if she has died on the inside and she begins to wonder if she will ever experience happiness and contentment again. She longs to feel sexual excitement and to have a man think she is pretty, sexy, exciting, special....all those things that she has not felt from her H in a very long time. As she continues to try to survive in her world, she feels empty of everything for her H, and when they ML, she doesn't feel what she should or wants.....she just goes through the motions. If it were left up to her, she wouldn't have sex with him at all. But, she doesn't want to be cruel or hurt him. So, she endures the lonliness.

Somehow, either in her social life, her job, on the Internet.....some way she meets another man who begins to pay special attention to her. It seems like light flirting or maybe just attentive & caring conversation....and she doesn't think anything is "wrong" with it....at first. What is happening is that this OM makes her feel really great and she responds to his attention. The more she responds....the more he gives. He is filling an emotional "need" that her H did not fill. Can you understand what I'm saying? I don't know that all W's go out "looking" for some other man to have an A with.....but it often happens like I'm trying to describe here. By the time she realizes that she is giving this OM attention that she shouldn't be giving.....she is "hooked" and desires his attention and whatever it is he's doing that she longs for. She doesn't tell her H about it b/c in her heart she knows it isn't right. Often times a W will even deny her emotional attachement and say that they are simply "friends". It may even start out to be a "friend" who gives her advise or just a lot of good conversation. But, she starts to talk to this OM more and more until she's TM or emailing him way too many times a day. A wife should not be doing this with any other man other than her H. She has become emotionally dependent on the OM. He makes her feel alive. At some point the R becomes more sexual in their conversation. It usually plays on fantasy. They talk about what they would like to do with each other. That fuels the A. Yes, it is an A by this time. Even though they have not had physical sex, they are in an emotional affair. The W will fantasize about the OM and having sex with him. Most W's will not want to have sex with the H when she's having an EA. However, some W's will if they are sexually HD or if she can have sex and fantasize about OM.

I know all of this is painful to hear, but I'm trying to tell you what I have experienced and what I've read from others. An EA is addictive! I had no idea how bad until I experienced it for myself. It was very hard for me to stop contacting OM. I don't know how people work in the same place with the person they have an A with--and continue to work there afterwards. That would be awful.

Some people say that an EA is as bad as a PA, but I don't know. I am just so thankful that I did not get into a PA b/c I don't think things would have ended the way they have. I believe a PA would have distroyed me.....but that is "me"....that isn't everyone.

As to how long a W can go without sex with her H? You don't want to know! I felt as if I could go the rest of my life. When a woman has lost her desire for her H, she doesn't care if she ever has sex with him agin! But, if she will let go of the A, and work on her MR she can have those feelings restored and desire her H again. BTW, she doesnt have to be in an A to lose her desire for her H, but that is a pretty good sign.

There is another thing I want to tell you and it is kind of "touchy". You seem to want to defend youself in the MR. I am wondering from what you've said if your W has heard too much about this from you. In your effort to explain your feelings to her, I think she looks at it as you being weak. After time, she has become very turned off. I think she feels that she has had to "mother" you. Any time a woman feels like a mother to a man.....she will not want to have sex with him. If you will go back and read your last post, maybe you will see what I am refering to.

I believe your W has a great need to see you as being emotionally strong & self-confident in life. I was attracted to a man who I saw as being "powerful". I did not see my H as a powerful man. This OM was not all that handsome, but that is not what attracted me......it was not his looks that mattered. It was his "power".....and I am not sure how to explain that. My stitch is not important, but your stitch is what you need to think about. Whatever your W is needing from you.....she will find in some other man. If she needs you to show strength & self confidence......then she will find some OM who seems strong enough to carry her burdens and make her feel that he can take care of anything in her life. That is what women want. They want a man to take care of them. Todays independent women won't admit a lot of that.....but it is true. It is their nature to want a man to love them and to care for them. If you go to your W with your insecurities.....then she will feel that she has to be the strong S in the R. After a while, then she is going to take on the role of parent. When that happens, it kills the sex desire. A normal parent is not going to want sex with their child. (Sorry to have to be so gross in explaining this.)

I think you need to stop expressing any insecurities you have. If this is a strong need you have, then you should talk to a male friend instead of your W. It is killing her respect for you. A W has to respect her H in order to feel in love with him. There is a certain amount of admiration she has to have for him. In other words, she has to look up at him with adoration or he isn't anyone "special". I don't know if I am explaining this very well, but I hope you can get the picture. Even though women want men to talk to them, they still need the H to be stronger than the W. Does that make sense?

As for your grieving the death of your parent......she may not be able to identify with what you are going through if she's not had to experience it. I did not appreciate what my H went through when he lost his parent b/c I had not been in that place. Then when it happen to me.....I thought I would die from heartache. I wondered how he endured what he did. It made me ashamed that I did not have more sympathy for him at the time. Again, you may need to discuss your grief with a C or a friend b/c I think your W has just reached a place she cam no longer sympathize with you. To be honest, I don't think she "wants" to do that anymore.

I believe all WAW's feel that the H's changes are too little too late. But please don't allow that to guide your decisions to change what you can. You cannot rewrite history, but you can do something about the present. What are some of the changes you have made?

It will take her a long time to overcome the hurt she feels. Verbal abuse is awful and it tears down any self-esteem in a woman. If she feels worthless, then she certainly won't want to ML to a man who makes her feel that way. She wants a man to make her feel like she is worth all the wealth in the world. If you aren't careful, she will find her knight in shining armour (or she'll think he is).

Since you have had this indepth talk with your W, I'd suggest that you do not have anymore R talks. Stay away from that for a long time. Just continue to work on your changes and show her by your actions that you are changing every day. Do not tell her or discuss with her your changes. You may think she's not noticing, but she will if you will stick with it. She will wonder if they are going to stick or if this is a ploy to get her to stay in the R. The point is for you to change to be a better man.....for yourself and for the rest of your life. Nothing else will work.

[Steve McQueen]

Excellent Post Sandi2. Excellent Post.

A must read.
Steve.