Over the Shock and GALing 6

[Dia]

Hi, Alex,

Doofus me, I should have been clearer. I was disagreeing with the snippet you quoted from robx, not with anything you said yourself.

Cheers!

Dia

[Kalni]

I agree also with Dia and Alex but can someone explain to me, how come some couples stick together and work/deal with the issues WITHOUT giving up or looking for what they need outside the marriage? I mean, except in some cases where there is booze, porn, physical abuse or problems in that sense, how come some couples stay together and are fairly happy together?

In my case my stxH blamed me for about 11 months before he moved out for everything, my character (horrible-mean person), my habbits (leaving my shoes by the door), my way of looking at life (pessimist), we were not compatible either and love wanst there, he even said we should have never married (we were alerady 4 years together and still crazy in love when we did) etc etc. I tried to approach him then with "love is decision" and I was obvioulsy speaking Chinese to him...

1 year after he moved out he said he didnt mean a thing. 2 years later (now), he says OW was the reason we split (the one noone knew about and he had been denying existed).

In the meantime, I spent a year in therapy trying to get rid of the guilt of being a bitch and a horrible person to him, for not "listening' and crying my eyes out for loosing the perfect man... To my cries that people change, his reply (and hers as I found out ) was: "people dont change, we are not good together"... (VERY STANDARD to most cases if not all: rewritting of the history- btw it doesnt last forever)

Of course both people are to be "blamed". Of course LBSs need to figure out their role in the mess. BUT, problems exist everywhere. Even to the best relationships, what makes a difference is how people CHOOSE to cope with them, and most WASs, (most, not all), are looking for a quick fix, the easy way out, lack patience and are weak. Are easily influenced and treat spouses as cars, "the newer model must be better". And IMO people, show what they are made of when the going gets tough.

When me and H were dating, had tons of money, were travelling, going out etc etc things were...perfect. When the kids came, work became a need because of the family we had to support and our choices felt tighter, when we faced sickness and death, he chose to walk. With a new woman by his side (only he forgot to mention).

Lets face it, I have read tons of stories here, I am Greek and live in Greece, I have friends on here that live in Canada, US, Australia, England... All problems are similar. Life is the same for everyone. I cant say WE were specially bruised by life, or faced problems no man had previously encountered... Life is not always easy. But it can be fun to fight with a partner by your side. It can be fullfilling and meaningful. Most WASs, fall in the trap of "solving the problems by running away". People have a different level of "tolerance of pain and difficulties" and not the same persistance. People were raised in different families that taught them different values or even simplier, different ways to cope with difficulties. And some of them, cant face life. They run away from it. Temptation will always be there, low points will be "hit", what you do is a choice you make.

I honestly believe some of them have no idea of what they cause and the consequences they will face. I call them "naive", immature (in my head it doesnt mean stupid, it means lack of experience). My stbxH says now I am the most important person in his life, she means nothing to him, he fel in love with the state he was in, not her... It took him 3 years and if I wasnt true we would be long divorced by now. But I was different and managed to keep it together and saw this as a fight. And despite the fact that I plan to divorce him, I feel so good and proud about myself -even though I have made many mistakes- because of the way I handled this. I know what I am made of. My kids will know what their mom is made of. I can tell the next man I meet he can trust me and I will never wonder if he can indeed trust me...
K

Btw, I think stxH will be a much better partner in his next relationship, he grew up, only we all had to pay a high price... Our M/D probably made him an emotionally inteligent man whose next GF/W will probably leave him LOL

[Thinker]

Wow, big response,

First a few replies:

That's TV love.

Everything that she's saying is part of the script.

Yes, absolutely. I know that.

What is really frustrating me is that I am almost a year into this and this part of the script has not changed one bit.

In love = connection = fixable

Again, my frustration is her continued insistence that it not fixable, and her use of that as a reason for refusing to work on it.

Now is not the time to get impatient and frustrated.

Agreed. But I am. Very.

I feel myself starting to walk away. I am getting NONE of my own needs met - not even a little. I am getting very resentful and bitter.

She's seeking a feeling that has to do with her and her depression IMO...she projects it on to you but she is missing her self-love, her zest for life, her feeling of being inspired. It is her foundation that is off.

Stop beating a dead horse, she is just engraving this story and you should have none of it, IMO. Words will never convince her, experiences might.

What is she passionate about? What inspires her? What turns her on? Until she feels whole, you are just part of her unsatisfying reality...

You are right on, but what should I DO about it?

I don't think you are going to be able to talk your way into convincing her she's wrong.

Don't worry, I'm not.

It's very hard to see "better". I admit that I NEVER (use of the word NEVER is precise) thought/believed Coach and I could have the marriage we are building now. The models of "love" in my life were my parents (divorced) and falling in love with Coach (infatuation). That long term PARTNERSHIP was never shown to me so I couldn't imagine what it would take to have it.

I believe you. I don't think she sees it either.

Oh grow up, my sister! ... this is silly Girl talk.
... Give her my number

I wish I could. I wish I thought it would help. I am pretty sure a few other people have tried (I suspect her friends and sisters), but she is not listening.

Does Mrs. Thinker know about LL?

I don't think so. I tried to talk to her about it and get her to read the book 5 or 6 months ago and that was a disaster. She refused to read it, and interprets the theory as "trying to manipulate her into loving". Her response kind of falls along the line of "There isn't anything between us, so I don't want you to do things to fill my love tank". I asked her to take the test to find out what her LL's were. She took one look at it, read the questions (would you rather have your husband do X nice thing, or Y nice thing) and replied "I don't want YOU to do any of those things"

I do think that was a bit part of our history. For the first part of our M, I was getting my LL's met, but was responding in kind (my own LL's) and completely missing hers. She was also bored and depressed at the time and ... there you have it.

The only way she MIGHT change her interpretation of the past is if she were to feel differently today. But, and I know you know this, you can't control that through words (and, believe me, your list (below) is convincing to me as I would say exactly the same thing about my M, but it's irrelevant to her). It falls on deaf ears and pushes the WAS further away. She's telling you she wants to FEEL it.

Agreed, words won't work, she has to feel it.

And my frustration is that after 9 months, and after MASSIVE changes on my part, she is still clinging to "It's just not there between us

While I'm sure that post is the case at least some of the time, there are plenty of LBS here who will admit 1) that the WAS has/had valid gripes, 2) that they discounted the validity of said gripes until the WAS really did walk, and 3) only got serious about addressing any valid issues after the walk.

Yep, that was me.

----

So the question remains, what do I do.

A) Go into hibernation and wait it out until Retro (which in my current state of frustration means avoiding her as much as possible, popping xanax to get to sleep, and counting down the days.

B) Openly try to talk to her about my needs in the R. "The old Mrs. Thinker did A, B and C during the first years of our M. I was deeply in love with that Mrs. Thinker." In the past 5 years, the new Mrs. Thinker has done none of that, and that has left me feeling very empty. I am not in love with this Mrs. Thinker (ILYBNILWY ?) If you are able to work on the M at all, please start doing A, B and C again.

---

A second part to the "So what do I do?" question is more long term. How do you get someone to choose you? Right now I am still here - still trying to meet her LL's, still working to pay the mortgage and provide for her and help with the kids and the house and...

So she doesn't miss me, and I am always there, and she can always look over and lump the blame on me for whatever she is feeling.

And she never has to choose.

She never has to take responsibility.

What in the DB toolbox helps with that?

[Dia]

While I'm not sure if you should go A or B, if you do go B, I would not ask for a bunch of things.

Do you know your own LL? If there was one LL thing she could do that would make the sitch a little better for you, what would it be? Is it something you think she's capable of at present? If not, can you think of something that would a) meet at least a portion of your current needs and b) be something she could probably do? You know - a baby step?

If you decide on B, that's how I'd approach it, with one small thing, or perhaps a choice between two rather than a list that might seem big and demanding/intimidating.

[Thinker]

I'm answering my own question. I think it has to be A.

I think that right now if she did anything it would be because she felt forced to. The end result would be that I feel better, she feels worse, and then we crash again.

I have to suck it up for a while.

As to my LL's, pretty simple actually, and pretty typical. Physical Affection and Words of Affirmation.

What was it that my W used to do that I really loved (some examples).

- Every night, when we finished dinner, she would motion for me to push my chair back and she would sit on my lap for a while - talk, I'd thank her for cooking if she had, maybe kiss - nothing sexual. The important thing to me was that it was togetherness and a routine connection and it was clear that SHE WANTED IT. (This stopped years ago, not sure when)

- She used to love to kiss - would find me to initiate and if I was too distracted or would try to break off early, she would insist and pull me back. It wasn't always her initiating, but it was clear that she liked it and wanted me to kiss her.
(At some point, her kisses turned into perfunctory pecks, and at times dissapeared all together. Now, if I try to kiss her, it is clear that she doesn't want it, and that I am imposing it on her)

- She used to be THE snuggler in bed - to the point where we used to joke about it, and sometimes I had to ask her to back off for a minute so I could stretch. Same if we were on the couch, etc. I loved it because it was clear that SHE WANTED TO BE WITH ME. Now she sleeps on her own side of the bed and never ventures across. If we snuggle it is because I come to her and initiate, and I am never quite sure if she is happy about it, or just tolerating it because it is easier than pushing me away.

Sex was, of course, the same. Playful passion became "Hurry up because I'm tired and want to go to sleep."

as far as words of Affirmation, she used to make it clear when she talked about us, particularly when telling "Our story" etc that. It had a sort of "And then he came and swept me off my feet" feel to it. Now, when she tells our story it sounds more like "And then he showed up and I didn't know how to get rid of him" feel to it. It's kind of insulting rather than complimentary, but it's always so subtle that I can't really call her on it - it's just her feelings coming through.

So what all of this tells me, is that to get my LL's met, she needs to CHOSE to be with me. Anything else and it will be the difference between a loving massage and a "vibro-massage" lounge chair - unsatisfactory because the connection just isn't there.

[Thinker]

On a point of note:

10.5 months since the bomb

9 months and 1 day since I first posted here.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...144#Post1683144

7.5 months since I exposed the EA.

3 Months and 6 days since she first agreed to go to Retrouvaille

11 days until we are scheduled to go to Retrouvaille.

11 years of Marriage.

If I follow the rule of thumb that the DB process takes a month for every year of Marriage, then I still have 2 months to go...

[Thinker]

Just venting / journaling a bit...

Hi Dia, I just found this on SP's thread:

I think a large part of the resentment puzzle is that we resent most that which we allow to continue. We resent being complicit in our own suborning. We resent *ourselves* perhaps as much or more than the actions of our spouse or others.

This is the rock and the hard place which currently squeeze me.

I resent (the hell out of) the fact that I am getting nothing out of this R right now (or for a very long time), and that I accepted it for a long time, and that my w very specifically has often refused to listen or change because "that would be working on the R and she doesn't want to do that because she is not committed".

So the resentment is building the longer this goes on.

But the answer to the resentment is to speak out.

But speaking out seems contrary to the DB mantra of focus on yourself and be patient...

[Lotus]

As Retrouvaille gets closer people become afraid. When you get there Friday night, look around. You will see fear on all the faces. What are they afraid of? Some of it is the unknown, no one knows what they will spend the whole weekend doing. And secondly, I think they are afraid of change. Change could make things better, but change is unfamiliar, and the walls that have built up between you make her feel safe. If the walls come down, she will be like a mollusk without his shell! She's frightened. Try not to take it personally. It will probably get worse before you get there. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't go. In exercise classes, we always say that the exercises that are the hardest are the ones you need the most. Yes, it's hard to walk in that door, but there really is something to be gained by going.

[Dia]

Boy do I hear you!

Currently, I am speaking out on the following:

1) Parenting issues
2) Talking about OW in front of me hurts and humiliates me (this only happened once, but I piped up real fast)
3) It not being ok to snap at me just because he's grumpy about something else (low blood sugar, general stress, etc.)
4) General housework boundaries (I will help with dishes, but do your own laundry, etc.)

This is keeping our everyday interaction warm, affectionate and generally positive.

I am NOT speaking up about:

1) OW
2) R stuff in general

And yeah, this bugs me. For me, seeing the progress in the day to day relationship - which is strongly related to speaking up about 1-4 above - is motivation enough to wait on the stuff I'm not speaking up about. FOR. NOW.

Forever? Not a chance. But I can handle it for now.

So I think the DBing 'Don't Go There" paradox is about holding off temporarily while you improve your odds for The Big One.

[Thinker]

Thanks to all for listening to me vent yesterday.

I'm calm now.