Finally got to the right forum. Started out on Infidelity, then moved to WAW and finally realized I am dealing with a W in MLC.
Think I’m doing the right things, but always wondering. Looking for some support and advice and guidance as I move through dealing with MLC.
Sorry for the long posting that follows, but there’s been a lot of stuff happening for the past year or so. As well as me learning some things.
I've been reading many posts on the DB site for the past 15 months. First time for my posting.
Last summer, confronted W about EA she was having with OM. Got the whole ILYBINILWY message.
Background:
ME; 48, W: 47 Married 22 years D18, S16, S15. W is from a strong catholic family - friends say she strong catholic guilt Her dad died two years ago. Her mom died last year. My mom died this summer. She was very close to my mom – has said many times that she was closer to my mom than her own mother. Our D18 just started college – moved away from home.
When her dad died, the MLC kicked in. She started to lose weight (25+ pounds). Started going out with friends dancing. Staying out until 2:00am every Friday. One night, out in a friends hot tub until 4:00am. Physically attached to her phone – texting at 4:00am. Hiding in the bathroom to text for up to an hour at a time.
This started my snooping to see what was going on and finding the first EA.
When confronted her about the first EA –the first bomb, and before I found the DB web site – I didn’t know what I was doing. Said all the wrong things. She said nothing was going on.
Found the DB web site. Start to GAL, working on me.
Then found out she lied to me about her whereabouts – claimed was with her sister. Sister confirmed the lie – second bomb. Confronted her again, but I listened this time. Heard many things about a MLC
I’m tired of being good, I want to be bad. I want to feel wanted. I want to be appreciated I want to be happy. I hate my job I hate my life. (not directly stated, but I’m sure she would have also said she hated me also)
I disengaged, gave her space. Did not pursue – even skipped a gift for our anniversary, just a card. Appeared to have a reconciliation last fall. EA ended, a return of passion to our M.
This spring, something happened. The passion died suddenly. W became physically removed from our M –She stopped holding my hand, giving me a hug – anything physical. I continued to try to hold her, touch her, only to have it actually appear that she seemed to be repulsed with my touching her.
Second EA began earlier this year. Warning signs before the EA that I noticed and asked about. But didn’t push or listen effectively enough. Due to her withdrawal from me and my mom’s illness, I became withdrawn and depressed. Both of us became depressed. I asked for her support – she asked for mine. I asked about why she became distant. Stress was her response – I said I didn’t believe her, the apologized for making her unhappy (wrong move). After two months of me asking and her not telling me anything, I started snooping again and found the second EA.
Different guy – friend of ours. 50+ text messages a day. Confronted W about the OM. After the tirade, and the accusations of spying and not trusting her and me not telling her how I knew, she calmed down and told me she didn’t know if she wanted to be married any more. Said I’m a great husband and father. But that maybe she just wanted to be alone . But that she was also scared about being alone and not being able to see her kids every day. Knows she can’t afford to live on her own. Stated we need to go to counseling.
Using some great advice I read from PuppyDog Tails, I laid out my boundaries:
I love her I can not tell her what to do – she needs to figure out what she wants to do herself. I will NOT tolerate a third person in our marriage I will NOT move out. She needs to find a counselor who she is comfortable with – I will not find one for her.
That was 5 months ago. I continued to work on me and being a great dad.
We still share the same bed, same house. EA has ended. I’ve stopped snooping after I confirmed this. I’ve asked her twice about counseling and if she has found any one. One testy response – Why do I always have to do everything? I don’t ask any more.
This summer, we talked about her unhappiness; how she hated her job. How she didn’t feel appreciated. She didn’t have time to spend with the kids. I told her that her happiness is her responsibility. She needs to find out what makes her happy. She was happiest when she was a mom. I asked her what she wanted to do. She said she wanted to quit her job and be home for the summer with the kids. I told go ahead – if that will make you happy, then quit. She was concerned about the loss in income. She took the job so that we could move into her “dream house”. She felt obligated to work to help us afford it. Told her we would have to adjust something’s, but her happiness is what is important here. Told her to quit. She quit. Noticeably happier.
Two months ago, I gave her a hug. She hugged me back. Last month , I gave her a kiss goodbye as I left for work. Nothing – just a blank stare. Based on some advice from a fiend, I asked her about doing some dance lessons together. Bad advice. She withdrew again.
So I’ve disengaged again. I used to text her a couple of times a day – just asking how she was doing – what the kids were up to. No more. I used to tell her what my plans were – now just “going out”.
We spend a lot of time together with kids activities. We talk about the kids more than we talk about us. It’s the only thing I will talk to her about – she does not bring “us”up as a topic of conversation. I have not brought up a new job search with her either. She did ask about her resume and if I could find a copy for her so she could update it. But no advice from me on how to update it, no questions on if she is looking for a job. We haven’t talked about me, much either, even though several things have changed recently about me.
Last month, we went to a friends 50th birthday party. W got drunk, saw OM there as well, they talked for a bit (15 minutes). Pretty much left her alone all night, hung out with the guys most of the night. She actually came over and joined the guys in conversation a couple of times. When we got home, I got the “look” from her – the same look she gave me after we reconciled last fall. Then she passed out.
She still goes out dancing on Fridays, but recently it’s become every other week., not every week. And coming home before midnight, not 2:00am. She’s spending more time at home. She is texting me telling me what she is doing and who she is with. We recently talked about my job. She seems to be more interested in me again. Friday, she invited me out with her friends. Told her I already had plans with a friend and she said to bring them along too.
She continues to text, but not as much. She has locked her phone, but now leaves it out when showering. She doesn’t text at 4:00am any more. She’s not locking herself in the bathroom for an hour at a time. I haven’t been snooping in months. I read some great advice from Sandi over on the WAS forum and am not pursuing my wife any more. I’m OK if she wants to leave. I am working on making my self more interesting to her. This spring, I started running myself, lost 35 pounds. Got new clothes, started playing more hockey, going out more, wearing cologne for the first time in 20 years. You could say I’m going through my own Mid Life “Change”. But I’m not pursuing my wife any more.
Got a haircut Saturday – new style. Women at work say it looks great. Makes me look much younger. W noticed on Tuesday. Said “you got you hair cut”, Yes. “When?” Saturday. “Were you wearing a hat all weekend?”. Some of the time. No other comments. Still don’t know if she even likes it.
I think we’re moving in the right direction. So what’s next? I don’t know. Anniversary is coming up. I think she’s still trying to find out what makes her happy. She’s likes being a mom and I think that’s what makes her happy. And at this time, that also makes her sad since the kids are growing up, going to college and don’t need her as much any more.
I’m doing better at appreciating her more, and letting her do things that make her feel appreciated. I used to help out a lot at home – doing laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, always running out to pick up the kids. All in the realm of helping out. I now realize that I was contributing to her not feeling appreciated. By stepping in and “helping out”, I’m making her feel inadequate – that she can’t do it herself, so I have to do it for her. So I’ve stopped doing laundry, vacuuming, grocery shopping, picking up the kids. But I thank her for dinner, for washing my clothes, and for running to Target for me. And I continue to wait for her to get over her MLC and figure out what makes her happy and if I am part of her life.
I’m pretty confident I’m on the right path. The one question in my mind though is if I “push” anything? Do I ask about counseling again? Do I ask about her job search? Do I ask about how her day was and what she did (snooping??). Do I just wait and how long do I wait? Do I ever ask about the M? I know there is no right answer. Just any suggestions from those that may have been through this before.
First I want to applaude you. Great job on your self discovery and efforts to that end. Also amazing at realizing things about her and how she feels appreciated.
DBing 101.
Make changes, and watch the reaction.
If you want to ask, figure out the 'best' way and ask...gauge the response.
You can even set it up before hand. "I am not looking to 'push' you, but I am wondering how your day was?"
In piercing I am of the belief that you have to have relationship talks...as long as you both are on the same path. Word of advice...not every day...not everytime you need reassurance, your reassurance should be from her consistancy of her actions...every now and then. Basically to evaluate where you both are.
If you're both on the same page, while she might not enjoy this, she should be willing.
Every now and then, I look up at my wife and ask, "Am I doing right by you?" I am doing my best so that her only response will be her smile and a whispered "yes".
Locked phone...sorry to say...not the best sign.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
I wouldn't "push" anything. If you ask about her day and it looks like you're getting the "snooping" look, just let it go.
As far as counseling is concerned, I wouldn't ask as it relates to the two of you per say. (Is the C she is looking for for herself?) Are you communicating well about the kids? Are the kids doing ok? What do they know, if anything (we all know they know something)?
The reason I ask this, my H (I'm 1 1/2 yrs sep. 2 1/2+ post bomb) and I do C for the kids and communication between us about them (actually us DB coach for this as is easier on the phone. NO, I do not come with any agenda, but my D's). It has been helpful for me.
I like the changes you have made for yourself. That she doesn't comment does not mean she doesn't notice (ok, you might have an argument with the haircut ).
Quote:
(not directly stated, but I’m sure she would have also said she hated me also)
Lose thoughts like this. You really don't know what she's thinking. I was more concerned that my H was indifferent to me b/c that is a lack of any kind of passion.
After all this time, I still don't ask about us. Some things have come up and I deal with it all as honestly and compassionately as I can. Bottom line, I let him bring it up to me. Has it worked? Don't know. I know he hasn't filed and I even got a "you are amazing" last month.
Keep working on you and focus on the kids. Hang in there.
Thank you Jack - I didn't really consider myself in the piecing mode yet, but I probably am... more things to read and digest.
And Grace, thanks for reminding me not to assume I know what someone else is thinking. I'm doing better at that.
Some good news - I went out of town on Thursday for the weekend, and got a hug before I left. She had to stand up and come across the room to do that, so it felt good she was reaching out to me. Like you said, the consistency of her actions - seeing some good things there.
We talk a lot about the kids - D18 knows we are having problems, boys do not know. S15 is having school problems, not related to us, but more toward new school (from JH to High School) and a very heavy class schedule. He has tlaked to W about it, and she talked to me about it last night. I'll talk to son this afternoon.
Thanks again for the reassurance. I'll continue to monitor and start digesting about piecing.
So much running through my mind right now, hard to keep focused. Anniversary is coming up on Sunday. 23 years. Last year she was in "remission" from her MLC and we had a good date. This year - ??
Based on some other advice I got from here, I am giving her a digital keychain and frame with pictures preloaded of the kids, her sisters, her parents and my parents. None of me. Also the latest Bon Jovi CD. Been trying to find a card, but not many out there that talk about anniversaries when in a MLC. Thinking about a blank card - wishing her a happy anniversary, with three questions: How are You, How am I and How are we?
Going back and forth between MLC and piecing. It's hard. Try something suggested in piecing, seems to back fire, then slide back into MLC and disengaging.
Read many self help books that have really helped me, but still unsure which one to use on any particular day or even hour. With out any info from her it's hard to tell what will work and what won't. So I try, what works I keep doing, what doesn't sends me backward and into a depression - wondering if it's worth it. But because they seem inter-linked, it's hard to know what path to take.
Read 5 love languages. Understand my LL, think I know hers, but until she tells me, it's still a guess. Read Michelles books, diving deep into these forum's. Reading PM, but think I may be premature on that one. Some good suggestions from a book on how to imrpove marriage without talking about it, digging a bit deeper into what PM talks about. Still wonder if I'm premature about applying those suggestions.
Mostly, I "think" I understand what she is looking for. But until she tells me, it's still a guess. So it's mostly going back to when we were "good". I'm talking to her more. I'm saying thank you to her, showing appreciation. And at the same time - trying to disengage. No Gifts. Leaving her alone, no calling or texting unless she intitiates. Wondering if I'm doing to much of what she needs at the same time wondering if she really wants me to disengage.
Some good and bad signs.
Good - still sleeping in the same bed, not much else. No physical contact unless I intitate a hug. Tried that yesterday - not a good sign intially - she didn't hug back for a couple of seconds and then finally put her arms up on my back. Good and bad there. We talk more, every day - I'm sharing more about my work with her, talk about the kids, but don't ask about her day unless she brings it up.
Bad - yesterday, she was cleanign the kitchen. Asked her what she wanted to do about dinner. "hadn't thought about it". Asked if she wanted me to go ahead and make something - sure, see what the boys want was her response. So I asked, they said they didn't care. On the counter was a meal kit that she had pulled out of the pantry - asked if I should go ahead and make that? I don't care - see if the boys will eat it. So I asked, they said yes. So I spent the next 30 minutes making dinner while she finished cleaning the kitchen. As I finished up and was starting to set everything up, she fires up some leftover noodles in the microwave, and leaves for the bedroom, turns the TV on and sits down to watch TV and eat her noodles. Previously, I would have sulked all night about this. But I confronted her -told her that it was inconsiderate of her to completely ignore the fact that I was making dinner for all of us and she goes ahead and makes something else and leaves the room to go and eat it. Then I left the room. Felt good about sharing how I felt.
Bad - she stopped wearing her wedding ring again. Don't know why, don't know if the EA has started up again. Not snooping any more.
Good - water heater went out this morning. W called me at work, but couldn't explain the problem, just water all over the basement. So I went home, discovered the water heater had sprung a leak and proceeded to shut down the hot water, and clean up. Told her it might be a couple of days of no hot water until we get a new one installed. As I was leaving to go back to work, she said thanks for coming home and fix this.
So I need to continually remind myslef of the good little things I see and making myself better. But there are times I just want to ask her to leave - go and find out if she really wants to be on her own. Want to aske her about us - what has she done about MC (nothing). What should I be doing, what does she want. And knowing I shouldn't ask. In that limbo land between MLC and Piecing.
Update. Since my last posting, just before our anniversary, we seem to be getting along better. She has been more conversant and friendly. The anniversary gift had an impact on her – I could tell she was moved by the gift (thanks Sandy for your advice on that one). I may have pushed too far on that though, because in the card with the gift I asked “how am I doing, how are you doing, how are we doing?” No response. But I did get a strong hug for the gifts.
Similar plan for Christmas – no gifts that could be related to us. All gifts are based around the kids. Had a professional portrait taken of our kids while D19 was home for Thanksgiving break. Only response to the gift was “when did you have this done?”. No thank you, nothing. But I have seen her multiple times continue to look through all the proofs. Most of the female friends have told me “what a wonderful gift”. But nothing from her.
I’ve also made some mistakes. I have been reading several of the books recommended here. One that I especially liked was “For Men Only”. Liked it so much, that I bought “For Women only” and gave it to W a couple of months ago. Felt it was OK since it was not a relationship book, per se. Included in the note with the book was this statement: “I don’t know where we are going or where we’ll end up, but this book, along with the one for men has helped me understand some of the reasons why we got to where we are”. Not sure if she has even read it yet, and haven’t asked about it. I now know it was pursuing.
Couple of weeks ago, she was complaining of a sore back, so I reached over and started to rub her back. She immediately withdrew, actually pulled away. Didn’t cross my mind until later that she was equating that to sex. Backrubs were a common precursor. So I still get it that she is not ready and I need to be aware of that. This is also pursuing.
She’s off and on wearing the wedding rings, some days she has it on, others not. She did not wear it at all during the holidays, but after Christmas, she started wearing it again. This week, it’s off again.
I am frustrated by her lack of acknowledging anything about me. But it’s getting easier to just not care about it either.
During new years weekend, my SIL brought her kids over to go sliding in our back yard. I had just finished my shower and was getting ready to leave for the night (going to watch a hockey game with some friends). My SIL comments on how great I smelled (Thanks Sandy) and asked what I was wearing. Also said she liked my haircut. W said nothing. At least someone is noticing.
Last week, D19 was hired by some friends to do dog sitting while they were on vacation in Mexico. D19 has been sick with the flu and W decided that she would spend the nights over there so that D19 could get some rest and get over the flu before having to go back to college. On the third morning, W called me to ask why a toilet would keep running. Talked her through some of the reasons, told her how to turn off the water, etc… Didn’t offer to rescue her, but when she asked if I could come over and take a look, I said OK. She didn’t want D19 to get blamed for breaking anything. Toilet was plugged. Tried several tricks and attempts to clear the clog. Couldn’t get it unplugged. D19 commented that the friends had said that the toilet had been causing them problems. So rather than fork out the dollars for a plumber, I cleaned up all the S**t in the toilet, filled it up with clean water, tried one last time to unclog it, then shut the water supply off. Told W that I cleaned up everything, back to clear water in the toilet and that a plumber would have to be called – her decision on if she wanted to call one or just leave it for the friends when they get back. Her response? OK. No thanks for trying to fix it, cleaning up everything and spending 2 hours of my time trying to fix it. Nothing.
Been out a lot during the past couple of weeks, playing hockey, going to games, etc… I’ve had plans just about every night since Christmas day. Most nights I’m getting home after W is in bed. Noticing that I am being noticed more – dental hygienist commented on how good I looked since my last cleaning. Dentist was flirting a bit with me at the same appointment (recognized it more after I found out she is newly divorced).
I’m doing good at dropping the rope and still being friendly. I’m following Sandy’s list. I see good things, baby steps. Last night, S17 was hurt playing hockey and couldn’t drive home. I was coming in from being out when W got the call – she was already in bed, asleep. We needed to go out together and pick him up and drive his car back home. We had a good conversation for the 20 minute car ride – talked about the kids school, grades, friends, etc… So some positives. But there are no actions from her about wanting to work on the M. Nothing on counseling. No comments on anything.
I’m ready if she wants to leave, I’m ready to move on without her if that is what needs to happen. I’ve actually thought through all the next steps. I dropped the rope, but recently started to pick it back up with a very loose grip. Seeing the baby steps are encouraging. But I really don’t think she gets it yet – what it would be like for her to be on her own. All our finances are now separated, although I’m not sure she even knows or understands. Virtually everything except a couple of credit cards are now in my name only. She’s cake eating. She has still not gone to any counseling sessions or made any effort to do so. I am prepared if we need to start “cutting” the rope.
So what about “temperature taking”? Do I ask about counseling again? Is that pursing? Or do I continue to wait until she brings up the R talk?
Quick question and an update. Should I continue to post here or on my original thread?
Update - W sisters weekend went well except the flowers never were delivered. She really likes the new treadmill. Still thinking about more baby step romantic things that I can try.
One issue that has come up. Last fall, I began seperating our accounts. Still keeping the joint credit card accounts that I pay each month. But I now have seperate bank and savings accounts. I did not close our joint bank accounts - just stopped putting any money into them. I also stopped checking them on a regular basis - I considered that her money. This week I got a notice from the bank - the joint accounts went to 0. She's actually overdrawn on the checking account.
I haven't said a word. I'm not sure what to do at this point. One side says let her ask about the accounts, then I can tell her that I am just moving in the direction she told me to go last fall - that since she told me that we shouldn't be married, I'm protecting myself. On the other side - will I jeapordize the progress I have made? Should I transfer some money over to cover the overdrafts?
Reading about the "fog" and that she may not even remember what she said to me last year. Is this a step to break through all of that?
Or another way of thinking about it....if the account is overdrawn sooner or later those pesky $39 dollar overdraft charges are going to start popping up in the mail. So it may cost you to not cover the overdrafts.
On the split accounts...there is a certain psyche relationship theory that separate checking accounts is actually better for a relationship. It seems that many people relate their bank accounts to their personal identity. So having separate accounts promotes a personal independence of sorts. Then from there they suggest a third joint account that is purely for paying the bills. Each spouse makes payments to the joint account...thereby quantifying what they bring to the relationship financially. This actually promotes interdependence in that you are working together in a quantitative manner to pay the bills.
I would add that setting up a joint savings account for vacations and such is taking it even further. Discuss a vacation destination, figure out how much you need to save to go there, and then work together towards the goal of filling the savings account to that amount. Each deposit will be visible to each and will be seen as working together towards a joint goal with visible evidence that you are both working towards your goal. (Your kids are old enough to contribute and could join in this also...that way it isn't a relationship thing, but a family thing)
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