Over the Shock and GALing 6

[Kettricken]

.... can open, worms everywhere .....

Personally, as a woman, I could never respect a man .... NOR trust him .... if I suspected or discovered he was agreeing with me to keep the peace/achieve a relational agenda when in reality he felt very differently. How can I rely on a man as my partner when he listens to me spout total crap without remonstrance, or sells himself out for me? It would be like if I found out he was "letting me" win at pool or racquetball.

I'm not talking about him validating my POV as comprehesible *for me* or being open-minded, manifesting compassion/empathy, considerate of hot buttons, etc. That's all good stuff. I'm not talking about having a change of heart/mind and genuinely coming around to my POV (this is where I see you, and it's great.)

I'm talking about the substance of, "You're right, honey, and I was dead wrong. I'm sorry," when that is NOT your true opinion. It's dishonest, and it's manipulative, and one could certainly make the case that it's infantilizing, from the standpoint of, "Well, it doesn't really *matter* what they think, so I'll just agree; why argue with a child or fool?" There is no partnership or respect there.

Besides which, if you routinely capitulate when you truly believe/prefer otherwise (perhaps because you perceive that the only other option is too much conflict and/or near-total invalidation of your POV) ... how does that *not* breed resentment *in you*? It sounds like that's what Mrs. Thinker has been doing for years, and with what result???

I think you're getting some bad advice. Gucci, if I have mischaracterized your advice, please clarify.

ETA:

Yes Honey, my dad is f....ked up. (get off the high horse of whether she is right or not.. WHO CARES? the issue is for you to learn how to respond to a woman that you love, not whether you HAVE to be right.)(screw being right, if your wife loves you more for being wrong on these types of issues)

You're doing awesome, though, Thinker. Way to man up.

[gucci loafer]

I think you're getting some bad advice. Gucci, if I have mischaracterized your advice, please clarify.

Trust me Thinker.. It IS the RIGHT advice. Follow it and you will know.

You found out where it got you with disagreeing with her about your parents. It got you more arguments and walls up.

I told you.. LEARN to agree.. be sincere (I think kettricken missed that part) apologize and move on....

It works. It stops fights. She feels heard. She loosens up BECAUSE you are on her side... Find one little thing in what she is venting or arguing about and use it to agree,pick it out to tell her you agree and move on...

Anybody can find something to disagree about in a talk. A wise man finds something to agree with when she is venting in the way your wife is. I would take my chance on being the wise man...

So Kett.. If you thought your husband was verbally abusing you. You would rather he say he wasn't and respect him more for telling you he disagreed with you than if he told you that you were right, he had been verbally abusing you and was sorry? You would respect him less and question whether he meant it?????

Interesting.. Maybe you have never had a man agree with you huh?

[hhh]

Gucci,
I am SO sorry to hijack but I could really use your advice. H said wants D on no uncertain terms...he's talking about and pushing paperwork...waiting for me to get back east to file...asking when I'm going to move, etc. He is wanting to make this happen sooner rather than later, clearly. I am coming to terms w it more and more, and trying to move on. Any pears of wisdom welcome!
-hhh

[Kettricken]

Well, if you meant 'find something you can sincerely agree with -- even if it's a little thing -- and then do it freely and without snark', I *totally* agree.

I had perceived that you said, '*it doesn't matter* what you think; agree as a matter of policy.' That might win the battle, but I really believe it loses the war.

It's BECAUSE my husband and I had terrible troubles disagreeing on a lot of things -- even stupid theoretical things -- earlier in our marriage that this matters to me. We had to learn to communicate WELL, without personalizing; we had to learn to fight fair and in the hackneyed phrase, learn how to agree to disagree and both feel "heard". How to stop emotionally extorting 'agreements' that weren't really agreements but resentful surrenders in the face of hurt feeling, tears and/or yelling.

If I thought my husband was verbally abusive and he said insincere words that validated my belief BUT he really didn't think he was/get why I was upset .... what would that be but a very temporary bandaid on a gaping wound? Lip service doesn't yield change, it just confuses the issues and DELAYS change.

Maybe I couldn't tell whether he was sincere or not; maybe Mrs. Thinker couldn't tell. The problem in that case resides in the effect on the false-agreer. You lose respect for people you're lying to pretty quickly. Dishonesty -- even with good intentions -- drives a little wedge into a relationship every time it happens.

Of course, it never hurts to say, "I could be wrong" as a matter of policy in any conversation. For anyone with a modicum of humility, that's *never* a lie.

What I find productive is a form of mirroring. When you articulate calmly and thoughtfully to your partner what you understand their position to be and their emotions and reasons as you understand them ... leaving out any discussions of whether you find their logic questionable and/or tainted by other factors or not .... that shows them that you DO understand and you cared enough to listen and process their POV. Overt agreement is then often unnecessary, depending on the circumstances. And nobody has to sell out their own POV. It's worked well for us, anyhow.

Maybe that's what you meant?

[Thinker]

Maybe I couldn't tell whether he was sincere or not; maybe Mrs. Thinker couldn't tell. The problem in that case resides in the effect on the false-agreer.

Just a note: Last night agreeing with Mrs. Thinker was easy, because she was right. The only thing I had to do was to bite my tongue to keep from nit-picking over the absolute nature of her statements ("You ALWAYS.." "You NEVER...")

[Kettricken]

That's a good point. It is easy to fall into the trap of pedantically-nitpicking the OPs words for stuff like that, especially if you are allergic to blanket statements. Not usually helpful to the conversation, *especially* if you agree with their basic assessments/big picture views.

[Thinker]

especially if you are allergic to blanket statements.

I am allergic to negative blanket statements made about me.

-- break out in hives

[Kettricken]

Heh. I'm worse than you. I'm allergic to blanket statements on principle, and don't much care for hyperbole either. Ask me how much conversational bloodshed THOSE traits have led me into.....

..... hey, I'm a work in progress, savvy?

[gucci loafer]

Well and good on the disagreeing. If being honest and thinking that telling the truth as you see it is you highest priority, then I would say that you might as well accept that there are going to be arguments or times of tough moments..

However, I look at it as being a little differently. It isn't my highest priority. My higest priority is not to feel like I always have to stand up for myself and prove I will be honest, but HOW MY WIFE FEELS about us and the relationship.
( I already know that I can stand up for myself. Arguing and telling my unguarded opinion is not one of my weaknesses)( I have found it doesn't work. Pick your battles. There are enough battles in a relationship without making more of them.

For example... My wife could come to me and ask me..


"How does this top look on me, does it make me look fat?"

Now. Maybe I may not like the top she has chosen as well as I would "truthfully" feel. Maybe it would make her look like she has gained some weight...

I have two choice at this point... Be totally truthful and cause her to feel bad about herself and spoil our night and her night...


OR.. I can take the road of agreement....

"You aren't fat, I think it looks GREAT on you and I will be proud to be with you tonight."

WIN, win... I really don't care to prove my honesty as much as I WANT her to feel good. We then have a great night together and I have avoided a list of issues. Now, she may very well say nothing to me and go change it anyway. (which she has done from time to time)The key to me as that she feels closer to me and enjoys the night.

Sometimes she has asked me.."Which pair of shoes do you think look better?"

I say..."Try them both on and let me see"
She does...

I wait... observe both and THEN I tell her the truth..

"I like that pair. They look good." I then point to the pair I like. NOW, I have been both truthful and agreeable. Again.. Issues avoided for the SAKE of the relationship...

I got to tell her how I felt and I also didn't make her feel bad or question herself. I WANT my wife to feel good about herself and that I think she is all that. She is and I will continue to tell her that. That is my priority. It works very very well for me and I am not going to change what works.

[Thinker]

The biggest issue in our M has been the bilateral avoidance of conflict.

Each of us, if we had an issue that was bothering us, will fume inwardly and sulk, rather than clearly expressing our concern.

Once we then get to the point where we bring the issue up, it has become emotional and we don't do a good job of expressing it - we either understate it, or it comes out as an angry outburst.

If we understate the issue, then the other person quickly sweeps it under the carpet - minimizing the issue and invalidating the concerns.

If the issue comes out as an angry outburst, then the other person reacts only to the anger - with opposing anger - and never sees or addresses the issue itself. We then try to smooth over the anger.

It lead to a M that was peaceful and outwardly great, but was in reality completely gridlocked, inwardly angry, and emotionally dead.

I see that I was also the worse of the two of us. Mrs. Thinker did a better job of voicing issues, and I would more actively brush them aside.

This has been the central theme of the changes I have been making for myself.

- don't brush off issues that others express to me (Listen and Understand)
- see past the emotions in others to understand the underlying issues (control my own emotions long enough to listen and understand)
- voice my own issues in a constructive way


...Still a work in progress.


Gucci, I see your advice as being relevant to me in the first two areas - listen, understand her issues, even when they are expressed as an emotional attack, find and then find agreement and address the issues, rather than pushing back, minimizing, invalidating or otherwise avoiding the issue.