"Now, the Depression has made me do a lot of things that I never done befo' -- That's why I went to a fortune teller and got me this lucky mojo ... Times is hard, as hard can be, and I don't want no woman messin' 'round with me." --Coot Grant and Kid Sox Wesley Wilson (1932)
Continuing the (mis)adventures of one Dr. Smiley's Person. I've closed the door on the last thread and will paste the last comments here.
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@june72 2315 7 Sep 09
Forgive the hijack SP, but I really am trying to rally people to look at Lost41 post's. I know that you have a lot of volume on your thread.
Her son tried to commit suicide (in part it seems like due to her marital situation)- she really could use support. I can't even imagine what she is going through. It happened a few days ago.
Absolutely no hijack apologies necessary, and all fellow mojolators asked to visit Lost41 ASAP. You can always deal with my nonsense later.
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Welcome back (hint-hint....) And away we go.
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@Sara 2006 7 Sep 09
To me, you could see if it's words or actions by asking her to go on an adventure weekend with you that weekend. Cuz if she's for real, then her other adventure can take a backseat to going to Retrouvaille
Denied. 'Nuff said (?)
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@aliveandkicking 0001 8 Sep 09
How do you know this is strictly limited to your time in Iraq? Just asking, not challenging you, just trying to understand because to me it sounds a little broader a statement.
Good question; strictly speaking I don't, but what she's said consistently is "the one time...." and "after Iraq...." Okay, don't believe blah-blah-blah, but I can't think of any reason why she would misrepresent in that direction. If she was interested in gilding the lilly it would be more like "you were NEVER...." or "a million times and...." -- KWIM?
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@Kettricken 0158 8 Sep 09
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Re: the quote .... SP, you weren't my first.
Sure, go ahead, break my heart. I mean it's not like I'm insecure about my skills or anything...
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Incidentally, I was directing it towards the Mrs., in terms of her seemingly not being able to let go of you not being there for her historically.
I actually got that; in fact, as you'll see in the Update below, I called her out on it.
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The Assumption of Good Intent/Good Will is a concept a friend on another board discusses. All things being equal, you assume your partner tries to act according to your best interest to the extent of their ability. That doesn't mean you lie down as a doormat
Thread reference, please? That sounds very cool. Must check it out.
(Speaking of which, I wonder if you mightn't find me in the alt -- I think there's some common ground on "real" issues that could be worth exploring, quite apart from this forum's intellectual focus -- if that's something you'd be interested in.)
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It means that when something strikes you badly, you assume it wasn't an intentional insult without good evidence. When they forget something important, you don't assume it means they don't care.
Oh, yeah... I'm really going to like this, I think.
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Even if they start freaking out a la Mrs. SP, you don't necessarily assume it has anything to do with you as opposed to some internal battle they're losing or some old pain that is torturing them.
That's right, that's right. I think I sort of get this instinctively. Once you really start working the validate-don't-defend-or-reject paradigm, you start moving towards this concept. Thought it requires a fairly sophisticated degree of emotional intelligence.
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It can also potentiate Michelle's "As If" ... coming to our present situation with that beginner's mind, rather than assuming our partner is going to fail us in x,y,z ways and then inevitably encountering (or perceiving) exactly that.
Good connection there. Tough, though, isn't it? The beginner's mind thing is a tough row to hoe.
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This is not incompatible with good boundaries and self-care; it's about how we assign motives, not how we respond to behavior.
Yes. That's another one I think I latched onto instinctively, though unevenly. "How we assign motives." I have to brood upon this for a bit. I'm not convinced that deliberately avoiding the assignment of motive is strictly useful. But I'm not sure. Requires more thought. And coffee.
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In theory, I think it's healthy to deliberately maintain that humility and respect for the ultimate unknowableness of my partner's internal life.
But that requires something of a leap-of-faith, doesn't it? Not in a bad way, mind you, but it seems to me to require real centeredness in yourself. And a lot of DB'ers, especially at the start of the process -- the gods know it was true of me -- lack that center.
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There's assuming good *motive and/or intent*, then there's seeing evidence of personal growth and change. They aren't necessarily synonymous.
And that's the closer right there. I think sometimes people conflate the two. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean the person "deserves" -- in some cost-benefit sense -- the benefit of the doubt; it means you're extending it to them, on credit. If they squander that credit, that's on them, not you; you did the right thing. Risky, though, isn't it? Once burned, twice shy and all that.
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@Coach 0915 8 Sep 09
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So stop debating with her and start doing. Diplomacy doesn't win wars.
Fundamental disagreement on both empirical and philosophical grounds. World War II ended not with 2 atomic bombs, but with diplomacy -- we signaled to the Japanese war cabinet that Hirohito could remain on the Chrysanthemum Throne. That was the deal-maker.
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Show your wife what it looks like for someone to not be defensive. (let her experience it.)
Concur and have been, from the first convo with Awesome DB Phone Coach Jody.
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Show your wife how to forgive. (let her experience it.)
TCB.
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Update
Here we go.
WAW brought the kids back last night, late-ish because of traffic, so I offered to meet them out for dinner, which we did. After we (both) got back to the kids' house, I asked her to help me put them to bed, which she did. As she was getting ready to leave, I asked her if she wanted to stay and talk for a bit, which she did.
Got some more of the numbers filled-in on the painting.
* The outburst was precipitated by jealousy over Someone (cf, @Gucci). I sounded "happy." That was suspicious. Why is someone else able to make me happy? I'm supposed to be miserable. This isn't going according to plan.
"There it was, shoved right in my face."Um, what? How's that, exactly?"Well. Okay. Well, okay. Okay. Not in my face. I went and looked at your FB page. I know I said I wouldn't. But..."Ahh. So it was in your face because you put it there because you went snooping. Even though you knew that was why I went on the Great European Getaway.
"Well, yes. I thought maybe you were kidding."And?"And it hurt."I'm sorry it hurt. But it is what is, as you say.
* This sense of being vaguely intrigued by SP is a function of my not seeming to care about the D anymore -- "you've moved on. I don't know, it sounds dorky."What sounds dorky?
"You just seem so cool."{Laughing} Yeah, that sounds dorky alright.
* The list of "dealbreakers" expands. We'll talk about that with Fab MC#2.
* "I'm not stopping the D. I just think we could do it better."Okay, good.
* She attempted to set boundaries with Fabulous MC#2, whom I have convinced her to still see.
Among them was the "no discussion/no mention rule" re: Signore Schmuckatelli.
Denied. THAT was a dealbreaker for me -- everything's on the table or we might just as well save the $150/week. She tried to threaten her way out of it -- "I guarantee you that's going p*ss me off."Okay, be p*ssed off. Or don't go. I really don't care either way. But it's the whole kit-and-kaboodle or nothing. That's the deal. Take it or leave it. (cf, @robx)
Result: Total capitulation. "Take it."
* Her friends warned her before D-Day [didn't know that]. She didn't listen; they didn't "understand how bad it was for [her]."
But they warned her it could come off badly. "They support me because they're my friends, but...."But what?
"Well, dam. I mean, I'm the Bad Guy in this. I left. I refused to work. I went with Signore. I hurt the kids. And they're married. And have kids."That can't be easy; you should give yourself a break. You made the best decision you could at the time, whether I agree with it or not.
But she still believes in her heart she did the right thing.
"I thought about it before, 2 years ago. I stayed because of the kids and was miserable the whole time. I couldn't do that anymore. I had to get free."
And she said that in a kind of I-dare-you-to-respond-way -- so I did: I understand. Have I ever challenged your reasoning? "No."Have I ever suggested your reasons weren't important to you?"No."So okay -- you evaluated, you chose, you acted. That's the most we can ask of ourselves. And we move on.
*"Be clear -- I don't want to get back together right now. I just want to see if we can get along."Fair enough.
"But you always wanted to work on the marriage still, reconcile, especially with [Crappy] MC#1."Not anymore I don't. I might -- sometime. Might not. But I'm right there with you -- I'll work on our relationship with you. Fair enough?
"Fair enough. What changed?"I did. Look, I don't know who you are anymore. You've gone through a process; I've gone through a process. You're changing; I'm changing. I don't want the old marriage, I don't want the old you, I don't think you''d want the old me. Is there a future relationship between us -- however that would defined? Maybe. Maybe not. That's too much to think about now. We do this in a step-wise progression. Maybe we get somewhere; maybe we don't. And then we know.
"Agreed."
* "Are you going to keep seeing Someone?"I'm not closing any doors.
"You should; that's fair. I want you to. I think you should explore it as far as it goes. Otherwise, if we were to get back together, it would always be out there; I'd never know, you'd never know."Yep.
"Is that also on the table with Fabulous MC#2?"I told you you can ask any question you choose.
"Okay. But I don't want to."You don't have to. You don't have to do anything.
"I really messed up with Signore. I don't regret opening myself to my sexuality. I just regret that it was him and not someone else."But not me.
"No. Not you. I wanted sex. And the one thing I was sure of was that I didn't want it with you. I just wish I chose someone better."Okay. I get that. I hear you.
"That doesn't bother you?"Sure it does. I mean, you know -- in the world of Total Manitude the other fellas sort of laugh at you if your wife wipes you off the Leader Board because you didn't make the cut. But that's how you saw it. That's what you felt. I can't argue with that -- you don't argue feelings, evaluations, assessments. It was your call, and you made it.
"Why are you always so nice to me?"That's the way I roll.
"Are you really this balanced? At peace like this?"Yep -- that I am.
* She attempted to set boundaries with Fabulous MC#2, whom I have convinced her to still see.
Among them was the "no discussion/no mention rule" re: Signore Schmuckatelli.
Denied. THAT was a dealbreaker for me -- everything's on the table or we might just as well save the $150/week. She tried to threaten her way out of it -- "I guarantee you that's going p*ss me off."Okay, be p*ssed off. Or don't go. I really don't care either way. But it's the whole kit-and-kaboodle or nothing. That's the deal. Take it or leave it. (cf, @robx)
Result: Total capitulation. "Take it."
VERY nice, SP. Well-done.
The rest . . . eh. I still say you're WAY too nice to her, but who am I to tell you how to roll?
esp. this:
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"Well, dam. I mean, I'm the Bad Guy in this. I left. I refused to work. I went with Signore. I hurt the kids. And they're married. And have kids." That can't be easy; you should give yourself a break. You made the best decision you could at the time, whether I agree with it or not.
But she still believes in her heart she did the right thing.
Well, SURE she does, because you take lobbed-over-the-heart-of-the-plate opportunities like these and basically AGREE with her. I would have said "Yes, you did, but that's behind us now." -- or something similar. Too much "rescuing", moral-equivalency speech!
Fundamental disagreement on both empirical and philosophical grounds. World War II ended not with 2 atomic bombs, but with diplomacy -- we signaled to the Japanese war cabinet that Hirohito could remain on the Chrysanthemum Throne. That was the deal-maker.
I learn so much from you, SP! Who knew I'd get a history lesson right here?!
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
Among them was the "no discussion/no mention rule" re: Signore Schmuckatelli.
Denied. THAT was a dealbreaker for me -- everything's on the table or we might just as well save the $150/week. She tried to threaten her way out of it -- "I guarantee you that's going p*ss me off."Okay, be p*ssed off. Or don't go. I really don't care either way. But it's the whole kit-and-kaboodle or nothing. That's the deal. Take it or leave it. (cf, @robx)
Result: Total capitulation. "Take it."
.....
"Why are you always so nice to me?"That's the way I roll.
"Are you really this balanced? At peace like this?"Yep -- that I am.
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In fact, I'm mojoriffic, baby.
I'm glad you pushed her, regardless if you saw it or not, it's just another test to see how far she can push those boundaries with you, how much you're willing to give up just to have her there, how much you'll give in and you didn't give in and she gave in - what does that tell you?
Expect more tests, expect her to continue attempting to push past boundaries and just stand there and smile.
It can be tiresome to continue to be tested this way and from what I've reading, some wives can push their husbands alot, continuing to see how far they can get away with their crap behavior. Really, it's all a sign of their insecurity and testing to see if they can feel secure with you, you pass the tests they feel safe/safer with you, the tests don't stop so you just have to be there, ready for them.
Man it is tiresome, I still go through it regularly and now that I know more about this, I just smile at her as if to say I'm reading your mind right now, I know what you're doing and I'm ready.
As far as the comment about her being so nice to you, I would tell her "...it's not so much me being nice to you, it's me not wasting my energy & rewarding your crap behavior with my attention. If you want me here for these marriage counselling sessions, you better smarten up, once this boat sets sail, it may be for good ;-)"
It can be tiresome to continue to be tested this way and from what I've reading, some wives can push their husbands alot, continuing to see how far they can get away with their crap behavior.
Yesterday's test was: "Oh, sure, I spent months planning and executing Mission Discover Sexuality with Signore Schmuckatelli, but you went and had dinner with Someone, which is obviously much, much worse, and it probably means you told her all our marital secrets and troubles and now I'm completely humiliated and shamed in the eyes of someone I admittedly don't know, but I really don't see that there's any hope at all now of anything because you went to see Someone because you like her and I only went on Mission Discover Sexuality with Signore because I was horny and didn't want sex with you ever, so you're clearly not at all who I thought you were."
Ummm, okay.
So we'll see. 50 minutes of Fabulous MC#2 on tap in less than 12 hours. What should I wear?
No. Seriously. What should I wear?
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As far as the comment about her being so nice to you, I would tell her "...it's not so much me being nice to you, it's me not wasting my energy & rewarding your crap behavior with my attention.
Yyyyeeeeeaaahh, not so much. That's not quite my style of mojo. It's a little....aggressive-slash-'roid-rage for me. I tend to do "cavalier;" for the detective readers out there, I'm more by way of Dash Hammett than Mickey Spillane, if you know what I mean.
It can be tiresome to continue to be tested this way and from what I've reading, some wives can push their husbands alot, continuing to see how far they can get away with their crap behavior.
Yesterday's test was: "Oh, sure, I spent months planning and executing Mission Discover Sexuality with Signore Schmuckatelli, but you went and had dinner with Someone, which is obviously much, much worse, and it probably means you told her all our marital secrets and troubles and now I'm completely humiliated and shamed in the eyes of someone I admittedly don't know, but I really don't see that there's any hope at all now of anything because you went to see Someone because you like her and I only went on Mission Discover Sexuality with Signore because I was horny and didn't want sex with you ever, so you're clearly not at all who I thought you were."
Ummm, okay.
So we'll see. 50 minutes of Fabulous MC#2 on tap in less than 12 hours. What should I wear?
No. Seriously. What should I wear?
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As far as the comment about her being so nice to you, I would tell her "...it's not so much me being nice to you, it's me not wasting my energy & rewarding your crap behavior with my attention.
Yyyyeeeeeaaahh, not so much. That's not quite my style of mojo. It's a little....aggressive-slash-'roid-rage for me. I tend to do "cavalier;" for the detective readers out there, I'm more by way of Dash Hammett than Mickey Spillane, if you know what I mean.
I would agree with her "maybe you're right, maybe there isn't hope"
Seriously when you go to the MC session, have her explain this one to you, what you described above about what she said to you & your MC. I would love to hear the rationalization behind this, it's ok for her to have sex with another man because she's horny but you having dinner with another woman was the wrong thing to do? I'm assuming she's had dinner with signor as well - i'm sure they eat, carb load before having sex just because it helps with endurance and all that. Tell her you're doing the same thing, dinner with another woman is you practicing carb loading so that you're ready for the main event afterwards. The WAS mentality never ceases to amaze me with how they can turn things around to make themselves look right even after they admit to things like infidelity. Crazy stuff!
This smacks of... "it's ok for me to do this but it's not ok for you to do this - that's not how this was supposed to work out, you're supposed to be at home, an emotional mess and I'm supposed to be enjoying my life at your expense - you weren't supposed to recover, how did this get turned around against me?!"
Yes I would agree with her, you're not sure there is any hope, you love her but you're not sure you're "in love with her" (turning this around on the WAS always seems to do wonders, it's like spilling a can of coke on a new laptop... BZZZ... ZZZAP... BZZZZ.... smoke.... sparks.... laptop go bye bye).
You use the arguments they used against you because now you're in a position to do it where it holds weight, it actually means something to them, it's not their choice anymore, it's your choice and throws them off, it's not how they pictured it to be.
As for what to wear, just remember what your mother told you, "clean underwear, no rocket burn!", everything else is just extra.
Seriously what would be funny is something that is a little arrogant: jeans with a few tears in them, no socks, flip flops, comfortable t-shirt or long sleeve shirt with rolled up sleeves and 2 buttons undone at the top, with a pair of shades hanging down the middle - of course, hopefully the weather agrees.
SP I'm loving this thread, if you ever turn this into a book it will be a best seller and if so I want my copy autographed.
