Interesting that you claim to have "dirty hands." I never suggested that watching porn made you "dirty". This may piss you off yet more, but generally when people are so reactive and continue to stew over a post, it is because it is hitting a nerve. Perhaps it might help to think about why it bothers you so much... And, I mean that quite sincerely.
Doc,
I don't think my comments have much at all to do with some mysterious male/female divide. I haven't condemned porn or masturbation. I'd say porn is fine and masturbation essential, lol. Both can certainly be part of a healthy sexual R.
Rather, my comments have to do with the effects on intimacy of keeping one's sexuality and sexual activities in a private world. Your W has done this with you, beyond the A. She enjoys making erotic pics of herself, yes? Doesn't that secret activity hurt the intimacy between the two of you? What if you learned that she in fact enjoys sex toys? Do you think that her feeling like she had to keep that secret and keeping it in her own private sex world just might have negative effects on intimacy?
Hmmmm.. I don't think the other party needs to read PM for it to be useful. PM is all about one's OWN actions and OWN self, about owning one's OWN sexuality and happiness, about detachment that makes room for real intimacy. I recommend it to people who aren't in any R at all. I got interested in it myself when I was alone.
But, you really seem to be getting it Doc. Very promising this: "I know it will help ME with my next partner if it will be my wife or not." !!!
Have you read PM yourself? I think the real question is: "If I'm dealing with a man like your exH, what can I (stress on I) do? Would reading and implementing the PM book myself work?"
The answer here, I think, depends on:
(1) how much of a personal risk you'll take putting your authentic self on the line (2) H's ability to do the same (3) The match between your authentic sexualities.
I really don't think my XH and I were a real sexual match underneath all the crap. But, we were never in piecing. So, don't let my view about my XH determine your view about your own chances.
THanks, OT. I feel like I've gone through a lot already, what's one more personal risk? At least I think I can. Not sure about H, and not sure about whether we "match". Guess I'll get the book and see what I think. Thanks for the response.
Doc... Glad you're reading it! I need to move on to the next chapter. It's a tough read. I need every ounce of resolve to get through it. But, it's good.
OT... you're interesting, and ring true to so much I don't want to hear (but should!)! LOL
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13
After many years w/my head in the sand... I FILED Divorced 6/2011
The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.
"Funny thing is that most women (I think) are upset with men looking at pron becasue the THINK they can not compeate with that skinny little thing...."
Not really relevant, but I don't think this is really what bothers most women about porn. I can watch and enjoy porn, but it is challenging because:
1) The women in the vast majority of porn demonstrate such inauthentic sexuality, it is frustrating. I don't mean that they are faking -- OF COURSE, they are faking, they are actors. I mean that the sexuality they represent does not correspond to real world sexuality. The techniques used to arouse them, what it appears to take to make the O, the sounds they use to express pleasure are very unrealistic. They create expectations of what hot sex "should" be like that don't correspond to what hot sex actually will be like. Imagine, for instance that male porn stars were consistently shown O'ing after rapturously painting a woman's nails, writhing in sexual bliss while giving her oral, and then having the base of the penis squeezed once. Sure, some men might find that enjoyable. But would it lead to O? Would it be a complete sexual experience. Would it bother you if your W thought this was the ideal of hot sex, and if you were a real man that would really do it for you?
2) There is of course the great discomfort of watching very young women who you know will not feel good about there job later being exploited.
3) Porn is often somewhat boring for women because the activities portrayed don't match our fantasies (see (1)), and because there is no story. BUT, to clear up this "story" aspect, this does NOT mean, as many often interpret, that "women want a nice love story and scenes of romantic dinners and diamond rings" in their porn. Rather, it is that they want the context of the R represented, including the power relations, basically they want to see the psychology between the sexual partners, their sexual motivations. If you add this in with a setting, a few lines of dialog, and appropriate body language, porn becomes much more stimulating.
4) There is incredibly strong social pressure on women to not like porn. Your W probably even feels this from you as you have a very rigid idea of what her sexuality is like, even when you have proof that she acted in ways inconsistent with your portrayal. Part of that rigid idea is that she is a very straight-laced good woman who doesn't like porn.
Update I have started reading it. Seems like so far if I could get wife to read it with me it would be better. Yes I see her and I in the couple except not really sure about wife. She has a hard time expressing her feelings so I can only assume what I see in the OW is what she is going through
Hey Doc, So much of this process would be easier if our spouses would willingly participate in it, right?
But don't underestimate for a second, how much you can get done by changing who YOU are in the context of the relationship. That's the whole foundation of DBing, right?
Thread #10 22 year M, MLC, Piecing since 1/07 Goal: Live with confidence & enthusiasm!
gs ...Journaling, Still reading “the book” but the next chapters would be easier to do with a companion. Today I blew it. Wife was leaving to go camping with her GF for three days. I will be leaving on my journey the day she returns before she gets back. She was getting ready and I so wanted to go and give her a big hug and kiss good bye but I felt she is uncomfortable when I do this and since emotions ran high (at least with me) the other day and we declared our “separation” I just told her to have a really good time and left. I was really waiting for her to call when she arrived. I wanted to hear how the place /weather was…and so on but………… Instead of calling home she just called son’s (12) cell phone. Son did not ask me if I wanted to talk. He just hung up and said mom said Hi. I told him I wanted to talk to her. So I tried to call her back but she did not answer. The reception is not good where she is and she may have climbed out of the valley to call son. I left a message to call me I tried several times but no luck….. But the more I thought about how she called son and not me I stated feeling really hurt inside. I can’t explain it. I was really hurting inside. This is where I blew it. I sent her a text message saying “It really hurt my feeling you not calling me when you got there” I am sorry but I just felt so hurt and needed to express it. It’s my weakness to express my feelings... just the opposite of my wife who never expresses it. From the book they talk about detaching they call it “differentiation –it is the process by which we become uniquely ourselves by maintaining ourselves in a relationship with those we love” MY problems is I suffer from is “Emotional Fusion” an example is Lorena Bobbitt, she was with a bullet in her brain and she still loves her philandering husband and believes in his innocence’s…or a woman who pleaded with a judge from her wheel chair to drop the attempted murder charges against her BF who grabbed her arm and dragged her with his car after they had an argument and she tried to stop him from leaving…. I am not saying I suffered those extremes but I still have it
Well I sent it it’s too late to worry about it tonight... Need to get son in bath and then bed for school tomorrow… I am ready for the floggings
And if I claim to be a wise man, well It surely means that I don't know
You won't get any 2X4's from me. The way I see it, your relationship is stable. It's not made better by the things you do right, and it's not made worse by the things you do wrong. You would have to do something a lot bigger than a text message one way or the other to have any effect at all.
It's not always a bad thing to express your feelings, lol. An "I" statement might be a better strategy.
Anyway, you seem to be sending W very mixed messages. A month ago, you want to renew your vows quickly, two weeks ago, you decide you're separated and share this news with others, now she goes away and you don't want her to act separated? It is very confusing...
!!!
