One of the wisest things I ever read on this board was, "Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past". When you parse it that way, continued unforgiveness seems pretty futile.
The problem seems to be, is she willing to start from now and extend an assumption of good intent towards you in this area as you go forward?
Upon reflection, her dealbreakers are ridiculous, viewed as "what I would need to go forward". You can't get quality intimacy and being there in the middle of outside relationships and/or divorce proceedings, can you now?
Love that quote about forgiveness. Spot on.
You nailed it - "the problem seems to be" - and that is no small thing. After all this, does she want to return to business as usual with SP. And that's why her "dealbreakers" are instructive. (PS - I don't think they are really dealbreakers b/c she didn't bolt when they happenened. The cummulative effect of the "dealbreakers" turned out to be...the dealbreaker). Looking at her laundry list, it seems like she wants improved communication (safe communication), financial partnership, a way different approach in the bedroom, and to know that SP will have her back when tragedy strikes her again.
What would it take for her to "extend an assumption of good intent"? I can't speak for her but I can tell you that I wouldn't rest my decision to return to my M based on any assumptions or good intentions. I came home when I could see change in him and I had experienced change internally, as well. Those assumptions and good intentions are pretty much what many of us had when we got married 20 or so years ago...and we've learned a lot since then (with expensive tuition!).
Greek
Me45 H46 T25 M22 S21 & 19 D13 Separated and filed 8/08 Moved home 11/08
She insists that moving out was the "right" decision. Of course, you disagree. But, consider this. She'll eat some crow; she won't eat all of it. If moving out was what she needed to do to see that really, she didn't have it so bad living with you. Then moving out was what she needed to do. You didn't need it. She did. For her, it was the right thing to do. That doesn't mean that it was the right thing for you, or for themselves, just that it was right for her. There may be a cosmic "right" and a million cosmic "wrongs", but for her, this was a right. You can give it to her.
One of the wisest things I ever read on this board was, "Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past".
Yeah, well I hate it when people quote me back to me
All of these comments seem inherently correct -- @Sara, WAW will be gone that weekend, on an "adventure" (whatever the hell that means).
And that's the kicker for me -- they seem "inherently" correct.
Here's where this LBS-becomes-WAS thing seems to hold some water. Great, so she's saying all these nifty things.
"Saying" them. Throughout the DB process, one is admonished not to say, but to do -- to take action.
Well at the beginning of the year, she was "saying" some pretty-not-nifty things AND taking action on them. Action, incidentally, she's since told me she first considered in October. 2006. And had thought about ever since.
Would she be saying these nifty things if No. 1 were different, if I had not changed? Probably not.
Would she be saying these nifty things if No. 2 were different?
Of course it doesn't have to be binary -- both those changes could be in play. But how much of one, and how much of the other?
We're told -- WAS won't believe you. WAS has to experience you.
Okay, fine, fair enough. But shouldn't it work the same way, in reverse?
"Ignore 50% of what they do and 100% of what they say" -- haven't I seen that here, there, and everywhere on these boards once if I've seen it a hundred times?
Well which is it? Believe it or don't?
Schnarch. You don't have to believe anything until you experience it.
And what have I experienced? E-mail. E-mail and a 15-minute talk after Fabulous MC#2 No. 1. But there have been lots of talks -- lots of good ones, even, since D-Day. D-Day itself, ironically enough, was a good talk.
What makes that one good talk different? What makes it weigh more than "I hate you," "I have no feelings for you," "I'm not attracted to you sexually anymore," "I'm being strangled in this marriage," "you're a nice guy but not my guy," "there will never be a reconciliation," "I should have dumped your worthless a** 10 years ago,".....
What makes that good talk weigh more than being spat upon?
Therein lies the difficulty I have. And incidentally @Kett, this is not about (non)forgiveness; I know myself well enough to know I can forgive adultery. There'd have to be a lot of STD testing, but the getting-beyond I could manage.
This is about uncertainty of intentions. This is about expectation of Belief.
Maybe she's scared; I know she's hurt by what Signore did -- she told me. So what do you do? Well, go get settled, get secure, get SP-mojo'd up again -- and then once the fear wears off, out we go again.
And unlike the Cap'n in "Cool Hand Luke" you can't keep 'em off the road when their minds ain't right, they get rabbit in their blood, and they run (@ 0:20).
The age-old problem of Free Will. On both sides.
I'm being asked to gamble my hard-won equilibrium on Belief. An equilibrium I achieved, incidentally, by following the prescription of action-and-not-belief.
To me, you could see if it's words or actions by asking her to go on an adventure weekend with you that weekend. Cuz if she's for real, then her other adventure can take a backseat to going to Retrouvaille and at least getting a start on fixing the communication and the mess that the two of you have found yourselves in. It is a matter of priorities.
Forgive the hijack SP, but I really am trying to rally people to look at Lost41 post's. I know that you have a lot of volume on your thread.
Her son tried to commit suicide (in part it seems like due to her marital situation)- she really could use support. I can't even imagine what she is going through. It happened a few days ago.
M38, H37 S3, S7 Together 15 yrs Married 8 yrs Bomb July 2008 Inhouse separation "I hate you" "We are over" (too many times to count) Reconciled Sept 2009 (still worth it)
Re: the quote .... SP, you weren't my first. Incidentally, I was directing it towards the Mrs., in terms of her seemingly not being able to let go of you not being there for her historically. Although certainly it applies to everyone.
The Assumption of Good Intent/Good Will is a concept a friend on another board discusses. All things being equal, you assume your partner tries to act according to your best interest to the extent of their ability. That doesn't mean you lie down as a doormat with a sweet martyr smile when they come home drunk for the umpteenth time and tell you you're a hideous waste of skin; that's an extreme. It means that when something strikes you badly, you assume it wasn't an intentional insult without good evidence. When they forget something important, you don't assume it means they don't care.
Even if they start freaking out a la Mrs. SP, you don't necessarily assume it has anything to do with you as opposed to some internal battle they're losing or some old pain that is torturing them. Perhaps you can even asssume they are loving you the best way they can at the moment. You don't impute personal animosity. You don't project referendums on your own worth.
It can also potentiate Michelle's "As If" ... coming to our present situation with that beginner's mind, rather than assuming our partner is going to fail us in x,y,z ways and then inevitably encountering (or perceiving) exactly that.
This is not incompatible with good boundaries and self-care; it's about how we assign motives, not how we respond to behavior.
Anyhow, I've found the concept helpful. Even if it is just a fancy rephrasing of "The Benefit Of The Doubt". In theory, I think it's healthy to deliberately maintain that humility and respect for the ultimate unknowableness of my partner's internal life. In practice, it can sure defuse a knee-jerk conflagratory emotional response or knock old ugly circles off-kilter.
ETA: That said, I absolutely agree with you; if the underlying problem ain'ta got fixed, you will find yourself right back here again. There's assuming good *motive and/or intent*, then there's seeing evidence of personal growth and change. They aren't necessarily synonymous.
Last edited by Kettricken; 09/08/0906:03 AM.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
You don't have to believe anything until you experience it.
So stop debating with her and start doing. Diplomacy doesn't win wars.
Show your wife what it looks like for someone to not be defensive. (let her experience it.)
Show your wife how to forgive. (let her experience it.)
Show you wife what true giving is. (let her experience it.)
Show your wife what compassion is. (let her experience it.)
She doesn't believe you. You can continue to wait for her to change or you can lead.
Take it from someone who has experienced it. Have some faith.
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Incidentally, I was directing it towards the Mrs., in terms of her seemingly not being able to let go of you not being there for her historically. Although certainly it applies to everyone.