Thanks, I have been following your thread, having an MLCer at home means there is never a dull moment for sure!
I only got a good handle on where we were in the stages when we hit Withdrawal and I could work backwards. I think Cat04 has you in about the right spot. When I say H was in a stage, I would class that as the dominant phase if you were to discribe the month, so maybe around 60% of activity that type. Other stages were always around in smaller quantities.
The end of Replay and Anger I found was a big U turn in the MCL journey for us. Anger and Reply was H looking away from us and relationship, looking towards fun. The horse bolting from the stable if you like. He needed to burn up all the held in anger. With the spending, spending (large for us) was done as a sense of entitlement. Our net bank balance pretty much reflected the end of replay. It probably took a further month for the habit of spending to stop.
When the Depression stage kicks in, the bottom or major depression is pretty obvious. Look for a room as a cave (spare room?), not wanting to to anything even Replay actions, days not sleeping etc. For us Depression gradually increased, peaked, then decreased. Depression is like the bottom of the U, H seemed to be home more as he was so exhusted he needed to stay in one place. This was the horse run out of energy!
Withdrawal for us was when H actually started to do things again. He started by cleaning his car out, then cleaning out the garage (a cave), then trying to reduce spending (eg noticing kids were wasting food), then working on his spending and other habits. He seemed to be processing, rather than confused, and activity increased during this stage. We are still getting the selfish stuff, but this drops off more further into withdrawal. Its selfish with awareness, not entitlement. Withdrawal onwards is looking back home to see if he wants to return. I think he is working out how to replace the old bad habits with new, better ones. Withdrawal we have had no R talks at all. This was the horse hungry with night falling, maybe the stable had some good points???
Look at the trends if you were to say month by month, or quarter by quarter what stage is increasing or decreasing. I found triggers would move him between smaller stages. Old large bills from Replay coming in during Withdrawal would trigger off a few days of Depression or Replay. By letting him deal with them the old H with appear a few days later a bit better each time, more at ease if that made sense. I would let the bills etc through to the keeper if he seemed to be trying to sort it.
The main help I got from looking at this was the sense that progress was being made through the tunnel in a general way.
Yeah, my H drops R talks on me at the oddest of moments, so while I would love to give him my 5 hour version of how I feel, I think I should have a more concise, and calmer version prepared to assist in us moving forward when the time comes for the chat.
I understand this is the time of the MCL journey to lay boundaries, so I want to think about how I can say I expect to be an equal again, and what checks and balances we would be happy with to keep us on track. While not having evidence, I want to consider my reaction should he mention there has been an inappropriate OW encounter. I feel I can work on this now to think about how to move forward on these issues, rather than wait for them to be tabled. I already have my plan should he decide to walk away, its the staying bit I havn't planned for!!!
Makes me feel like I am progressing when I am waiting for him to sort out his stuff. Once I have a clear position and have faced my fear, detachment is easier. Works on a good day anyway!
Has he given any indication about staying? Just curious.
Personally, I would love even the 30 minute version of my end of it, but I doubt I will get that anytime soon. I have been given the opportunity to share some one liners, which seem to seep in very slowly with H. But it is probably the best way. Yes, this does seem to be the period for boundary setting. Probably because the "bad" behavior has slowed. I just don't know. I have wondered if it is simply that I am fed up.
We all reach different places at different times. I too have the plan for if he leaves. But the plan for if he stays, I think that is more of a daily thing than a plan. I just wonder so much where their heads are sometimes. I had a future plans conversation with H this weekend, talking about two different times within the next year and it made me want to ask him where his head is, but I just went along with it like any other conversation. So he is planning for the future. Here. No hopes being raised on this end right now though.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Staying Indications? Hmmm, at the moment I would class them as indications he has gone from definately leaving to considering again if he wants to leave!
- Two months ago a joint phone bill with both our cell phones attached needed to be renewed for 12 months, H took his phone off the plan as he wanted to pay all his own expenses from a new account he was setting up. Two weeks ago a car insurance bill with both our cars needed to be renewed for 12 months, H said "oh just leave both cars on it" - H has started doing housework again. He used to do the dishes etc all the time (daily). First half of the year he did not do them once. He is now doing several times a week. - Telling me where he is at all times, telling me what he is spending all (larger) money on again, taking most calls in front of me again (toddlers make ph talk hard), spending most non-work time in the house again. - ML has moved from one night stand style to very caring again (not sure in bloke speak significance of this?)
This has been since he said he was 100% certain he wanted to move out, so changes have lasted couple of months. Mostly changes very small steps in right direction, first half of year all steps were in wrong direction. So we are on a good path at the moment, how long we stay on it is the thing, no expectations until I see real progress. I do not expect any big announcement, just many baby steps until one day we would look back and see how far we have come.
Communication? Nothing at all at the moment but I know H is still processing and not clear in his own head, let alone ready to talk to be about it. Thats why I am waiting for him to talk when he is ready. But I don't want to wait six months or more then me begin to process what he has to say to me and drag the whole crisis on even longer. I would like to try to process as much of my anger / frustration etc now so I can move on with my life asap. I think I am aware of most of Hs issues with me, once he finishes processing his side of things then I will get a clearer picture about which of those issues is really important to him, not just projection.
I have been having trouble working out why I feel so flat now the light at the end of the tunnel seems actually visable once in a while. Its like we have come through this major crisis and for the first time can actually take a breath. It feels to me like finally, how we feel has a chance to be tabled and we might actualy be listened to. That is close but we are not yet there.
Our tanks are running close to empty, we are topping them up ourselves but after giving so much for the last couple of years (topping up their tank first) a bit back would be nice. Thats how I feel, anyway. But I am also waiting for H to really open up to me about how he is feeling. Pre crisis he used to all the time, he has shut down all crisis apart from dribs and drabs. Once he opens up then we can start to roll up our sleeves and move forward. Thats the time I see for boundaries and my side of the story.
I know what you mean about one night stand sex vs ML. I have had to sort of put an end to that for me, for now. I just can't keep doing that. I am torn about it because I don't want him to feel like I am not interested, but it has just become a little bit too difficult for me. That could change though.
I think we all go through that when we think we are seeing, or are seeing, the light because we have been working so hard to move forward, to keep positive and even though it becomes normal, it does take a lot of work. Kinda like the long cross country drive. You know or think you are almost there and suddenly you feel like you can't go that final hour, even though you have come so far, all you want to do is stop and finish in the morning.
Something I have been told by so many people through all of this, and not people who know H or the whole situation, just wise people, is that I am no longer the person H fell in love with and that is what is missing. Not so much specific issues, just the overall light, fun, airy attitude. That has been hard for me cuz I was 17 then, and I don't want to be 17 again, but I have been able to see what they are talking about, and as I have brought my own light back, I have found that the things he complained about (sexually and others) have just sort of fixed themselves. Interesting huh...
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
I haven`t anything written down by way of an S plan for me-just working out stuff in my head so far, sorting out money, house stuff, found out my legal rights, that sort of thing.
Have a little fear there that if I plan it too much it just might happen, you know?
But I am planning on having LOTS of fun. And that`s fitting in well with DB principles right now. Fun and laughter with the kids, me being open to trying new things, dreaming of the day when I`ll try a new man, even!LOL!
That`s helping keeping things light and airy for me.
Knowing how much this THING has weighed me down for over a year and more(it crept up on me)I`m finally begining to enjoy the sunshine again. I`m not constantly thinking about it, or constantly trying not to think about it.
Having a life in every other way. Having fun, helps for sure.
Have to add SR and TIF(Cat knows this already) I`ve been to a wonderful meditation last weekend and I`m sure it has healed me to the point that I`m begining to feel my own goodness.
Getting to know and love ourselves is imperative to surviving life with a spouse who hates himself so much he hates his wife too.
The ML attitude was worse peak Replay/Depression/Anger. I guess classic OW stuff, that was my peak suspect period although yet to find evidence. When you asked for positive changes, I had to really think about my list and realised how much it had changed. I know during that period H and I thought he was acting in very different ways. He honestly thought he was still being very gentlmanly towards me (pre crisis he was very very laid back and I was treated like a Queen).
What positive changes have you seen with you guys? I found that question very thought provoking for me!
I certaintly lost my attitude during pregnancies etc the last couple of years, but I have got it back now, although I am also certainly a work in progress as we all are. I think the attitude for me is about making fun of yourself. Today I went to a country fair and spent the day walking around with my face painted as well as the kids for example. Smiling as often as possible even when no one is there. Listening to happy music. It all flows through, you know?
Yeah, my S plan is in my head only, ready to be actioned and can hit the ground running on it. I am now feeling really happy again for the majority of the day, and when I get down I can pick myself up with my bag of tricks pretty quickly most of the time.
I have moved my main focus to my kids, they are doing ok but as my mind has been elsewhere for a while I want to spend quality time, rather than time with them.
Having said that, my horroscope for the month says a very tough month relationship wise, issues that came up right at my toughest patch will be revisited and dealt with, even horroscope says no R talks this month in those words! So H can go way on the back burner for the month I think!
The end of Replay and Anger I found was a big U turn in the MCL journey for us. Anger and Reply was H looking away from us and relationship, looking towards fun. The horse bolting from the stable if you like. He needed to burn up all the held in anger. With the spending, spending (large for us) was done as a sense of entitlement. Our net bank balance pretty much reflected the end of replay. It probably took a further month for the habit of spending to stop.
Hey Storm,
Interesting....I like the horse bolting from the stable analogy.
I have been thinking a whole bunch about the positive changes question myself. In part because I wonder if what I see as positive changes really are and in part because I wonder if they really are making any difference.
Here, I want to say most of the changes have been within me. Jack and Mach showed me something yesterday, inadvertently, but nevertheless, I have friends now. Real life friends and virtual. Which is a little wierd but it is a good thing. I have never had tons of friends, more like acquaintances, but over the years, as I got busy with S and H, and as H didn't seem to really like the fact that I had friends, I sort of became isolated with the exception of H's family and a few people he considered friends. Then as the crisis started, especially during early replay, I was suddenly getting into trouble if I spoke to anyone. ANYONE. It was sort of a nightmare. So I became even more isolated because I got reallllllly tired of always getting into trouble for speaking to people for any reason. Last year, when I found this board, I just didn't care. I needed someone, anyone. H didn't like it and it brought on rounds of anger. I don't want him knowing I'm on here now simply because I like having privacy in my life, but if he finds it, I don't really care too much about the fallout. So that is a major change for me. Trusting myself to step out. H knows I go to church and there are people there. So far he is ok with that. H was surprised that I have resurrected friendships with other parents from S's activities, very surprised but says nothing. I am much happier. I guess that maybe he sees that I am likable even if he doesn't like me. Who knows? H is ever so slowly growing up. He is taking responsibility for a few things around the house without being asked by me. He is more willing to attempt to do something if I ask him to. He has started using the words we, us, ours once in a while, actually about the big things like the money, which for all of these years, he would use I, me, mine, and I would always have to say ours or whatever. When I say baby steps, I really mean baby steps. H is noticing things. My mood, I was watching my soap the other day and just bawling, H was home and not only noticed but commented on it. Yes he sort of thought it was stupid, but considering when the bomb dropped and I cried for weeks and weeks non stop and he saw NOTHING, I guess I was suppossed to be fine, when I lost 40 pounds and became a walking skeleton he noticed nothing, when I went into early perimenopause and he read the doctors papers but still noticed nothing (8 months later he asked why I was so irregular and didn't remember me telling him anything or reading anything), I guess him noticing me crying over a TV show is sort of a positive.
What have I noticed negative, well H is a drinker now. That for me is a major problem, but I am hopeful that this is not a permanent change and more a symptom of the depression. Because regardless of what H wants, that is a deal breaker for me and it always has been. No more alcoholics in my life. That sort of seems to be going in cycles as well. Things are positive for a few days, no drinking, getting along, and then he either goes to work, or goes backwards, and the drinking picks up for a while.
H is fighting the withdrawl. He is fighting it really badly. Keeps trying to bounce back into replay/depression but it only lasts for a day or two. Then tries to be normal but that lasts even less time. So I sort of think he is stuck right now between depression and withdrawl and I don't know which one is going to win. Do they have the option?
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
