Divorce not busted 3

[Orich]

I saw my ic tonight. We spoke about all the recent events. He is still convinced that talking is the way to go. He says there is no use in trying to guess what her motivations are, that I should initiate until she joins in. He said to wait until after Retrouvaille if I thought that was better, because confrontation might make her back out of the weekend.
He also said that he thinks she needs to be talked back to, to be told no, etc. I have been passive through most of the marriage, and she might want me to put my foot down and confront her in a loving way. I think there is merit in this. Once, long ago, I recall her saying she wished someone would yell at her when she was particularly overrun with the finances.
8 days till Retroivaille.

[sandi2]

Orich, as I've told you before, you remind me so much of how my H was for most of our M life. However, I have seen him change, so I know you can also. He was such a "nice guy" and so passive that everyone thought he was wonderful. However, I thought people took advantage of him b/c he would not stand up to them. Even without realizing it at first....I began to take advantage. The more he took from my mouth and my attitude....the more I gave! I did want him to stand up to me or to "fight" (not physically) with me....just DO SOMETHING FOR GOD'S SAKE! I was sick to death of him being passive!!

You said you were the strong silent type--and I nearly fell over, b/c that is exactly what I use to say about my H before we M. But often, what might attract in the beginning...is seen differently after time passes. What you see as being "loving" is not seen that way by your W. Now, if you will say what it was that you did that hurt her so badly, then maybe we can help with that....but if it was "things" in general, then I think she is BSing you.

There is another possiblity. I have seen in-law problems and it is not pretty. Some MIL's are wonderful, but the DIL is so jealous of the H's R with his mother. It is b/c of his failure to make the W feel like SHE is the most important thing in his life. Now before all the men nearly die....let me quickly tell you this. My H talked about me just like you talk about your W all the time. Yes he did! Only he talked about it to others when I wasn't around and he never told me! I was starved to death to hear those words of affirmation from him.....but he was the STRONG SILENT TYPE!! Or...so it seemed when he was around me! Perhaps you have never told her the things you've told us ABOUT her. Maybe she sees you having this loving R with your parents and she is jealous (and hates herself for feeling that way) toward them b/c she wants to be number one in your heart. Of course you know she is....and you think she should know it.....but if you don't talk to her about your feelings (and I just bet you don't)then how can she feel that secure? I know men don't understand this and think that b/c they said "I Do" on their wedding day, that should last a lifetime. But women don't simply want to only hear "ILY", they want all the other love conversations that goes with the ILY. Some guys would be shocked to realize their W feels insecure b/c he doesn't give them words of love conversation. If this is what she craves, then she wants to hear how wonderful you think she is! You talk as if you've expressed all of this before but I am wondering if you just think you've told her enough or if you've been more silent than you should be. Silence can kill a M. When you get to the retreat, you best not be silent any longer. Orich, please listen to me sweetie.....I wanted my H to open up his thoughts and feelings to me so badly that I would cry. I turned myself inside out for him and thought he would be the same toward me, but he didn't. He said he didn't know how. But, he always seem to know how to talk to dear old mom! It brought so much pain into our MR and I even thought that someday she would be dead and then I wouldn't have to deal with him always putting her above me. Thirty years later....it finally happened....she died. So much bad stuff had happended that I felt could not be restored and it was just....sad. Maybe your parents are super parents. But ask yourself if you might be making your W feel like she is not as important to you as they are. No...my H could not see it either, even though my SIS's tried to tell him....he still thought it was my imagination. That insulted me. Please don't be blind and search your heart and memory to see how she acts when the family gets together and when you speak of them. That might be your clue. It doesn't make her a bad person....it just makes her your wife! It is natural for her to want first place with you and it's your job to show her she is.

I'm only making suggestions.

[Orich]

Hi Sandi, thanks for your thoughts.
I understand what you are saying, however I don't think either thing applies to me. I used to tell my W daily that I loved her. I wouldn't let a day go by without saying those words to her. Also, I constantly told her how beautiful she is (she really is). And I would very often tell her that she meant everything to me.
As far as my parents are concerned, I do have a great relationship with them, but I always put W first.
One thing I do agree with is that I didn't share my feelings with her, but then again, she never really shared hers with me. I think that is the main reason we are where we are. We don't communicate well. Even now we don't.
I plan on opening up completely on the Retro weekend. I hope she is able to open up as well. When I think back to when we were first together, I remember that it was some time after I began telling her I loved her before she said it back. I know she felt it, I could tell. But she had a hard time actually saying. It's kinda the reverse of what you would think, right? The girl trying to get the guy to say I love you?
Anyway, seeing my IC was like a shot in the arm. I feel a bit stronger and able to do what is necessary now.
I don't know if this means anything, but normally (now) my W communicates through texting. Last night she called me from her office (she had to go in for some kind of training) to ask how the boys were. Just something I noticed.
Three day weekend coming up. Plenty of time to apply my new DB resolve. I will keep everyone updated.

7 days until Retrouvaille.

[Energizer Bunny]

Orich - once again, I am blown away by the similarities of our situations.

Has your wife ever said that she has felt smothered? We have had an odd dynamic at my house because I have never been one to shy away from feelings, talking about my day etc. She has been the quieter one. (kind of a gender role reversal). I was quick to tell her and show her that I loved her and that she was the center of my world.

With that said, I have been the strong, take charge guy and had generally gotten my way. She would go along with my way without arguing so I thought she just felt the same way. This combined with a very controlling mother has led her to a spot where she feels the need for independence.

This is kind of the opposite of Sandi's scenario, but I am curious. Does this sound like your sitch?

[Orich]

In that sense, no. She was always in control. I used to joke and call her my social director, because she always made plans for us. She also did the bills, etc. I almost always went along with what she wanted because it worked for us, or so it seemed. I think now she was looking for me to take charge once in a while, especially when it came to our financial difficulty.
So, she always got her way, and for the most part it was what I wanted anyway. I realize now that I should have tried to get my way more often on the few times we disagreed instead of giving in.
Sandi asked in her last post what it was that I did to hurt her so badly, and this is it. It came to a point when our financial status was dire. After a few years of being pretty laid back on small issues, they built up for her, and what pushed her over the edge was that I didn't step up to the plate and look for a second job or try to get overtime at my regular job. Her first marriage ended when her husband didn't get a job at all, never mind a second job, and they filed for bankruptcy and then divorced.
EB, I read your last post on your thread. I am so sorry you are going through this. I feel I am not far behind you. If there is no forward movement on our Retrouvaille weekend, I may be in your position the only difference being that I might be the one to pull the trigger. Living like this with my wife as barely a friend, not to mention no intimacy even though we are in the same bed, is getting old.
I am praying and pulling for you, buddy.

[Energizer Bunny]

Interesting. The reason I asked is that we all seem to give very similar advice here. Sometimes the same advice just doesn't fit the sitch though.

For example, I think stepping up and taking charge is one of the things that chased my W away. Doing more of this would just make matters worse whereas in your case it may be just what the Dr ordered.

In my case, if I pulled the trigger my W would feel that it is more of me controlling the sitch. In your case it may be something that your W respects.

It gets old. That's for sure. Strangely as gut wrenching as it is, as much as I feel like curling up in the fetal position and sucking on my thumb (as someone on your thread put it a few days ago), there's a weird sense that at least something is going to change.

I'll still pray for the Retro for you.

[Orich]

More and more I am believing that a firmer approach is required by me. The only times I have seen her waver is when I "stood up to her". I think there needs to be more of that.
Thank you for your prayers. Mine are with you and your family as well.

[Coach]

EB and Orich, You two will crash and burn unless you stop the whining, mind-reading, waiting for her to change, looking for excuses about why she is leaving you, avoiding confrontation, and ignoring the feedback you get here.

Sandi2 gave you guys some great feedback but you two blew it off. You can't change your wives!!!!!!! Stop obsessing over them.

what pushed her over the edge was that I didn't step up to the plate

Yet you keep avoiding stepping up to the plate. You can't score unless you take a shot.

Living like this with my wife husband as barely a friend, not to mention no intimacy even though we are in the same bed, is getting old.

You wife has been living this for years because her husband won't step up. Learn what intimacy means to a woman. What can you do to find a solution to your problem?

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
- Martin Luther King Jr.

Handle it.


Cheers

[Energizer Bunny]

There are a lot of things that we agree on, but some that I guess I just see differently.

As mentioned above, the reason the reason that I try to understand my/our situations so much is to make sure that I am following the right path. I don't want to pull the trigger on actions that may fit another situation, but not my own.

Afterall, prognosis before diagnosis is just bad medicine.

Standing up to my W is kind of what got me here. So in my case, more of that would be more of the same. More of that hasn't worked.

I've asked Orich about his sitch because I don't want to give my 2 cents on what may work while being completely uninformed.

You, Sandy, GIMA and so may others have all been amazing resources for so many of here. I hope that I have not come off as blowing anyone off. If I have I sure haven't meant to.

Just trying to be the best me that I can be.

[mulesqb]

Pretty interesting stuff here Coach. A lot of times when you're in the game, you play not to lose. That's what I see here. You know what happens most of the time you play not to lose...you lose.

I think it's time some of the game plans change here and the strategy gets a bit more aggressive. It always drove me crazy when we were playing a good team with a strong defense and our coaches would gameplan to change our entire personality to try and beat them. I hate that. I think when you have a tough opponent you need to line up and send your best against their best and see who's better.

Orich/EB - it's time. Cut the crap. Line up and send your best out there. Stop worrying about the way the opponent will react. Do what YOU do best. Play aggressive.

You agree Coach?? It's time for a play action fake and strong mid range throw down the field..

Strength and Honor.

Mules.