I think thats how they give someone a hug online. Anyway thanks for dropping by and for your words of encouragement. Its morning for me now and I've got to go cook lunch for my daughter now. Sorry to hear that you are still going round in circles but aren't we all?
Grislen and Mulligan, thanks for your input too. HD H's allowed to vent too. LH
It sounds to me (having been there myself over other issues) that your husband realized he'd messed up big time but didn't know how to SAY he was sorry. So, he's doing about everything he can think of to SHOW you that he is. Is this typical behavior for him? If it is, you may be better off accepting this apology for what it is. Not everyone knows how to express themselves verbally -- especially when they're in "deep kimchi." You're the one who knows your husband (although I don't mean to say you can read his mind).
If on the other hand this is what he does to AVOID apologizing in any form, he probably needs to be called on it. It all comes back to the intent behind it, and only you can judge. Good luck!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Quote: Anyway, you still have till Wed like you said. And take comfort that at least you're going to counselling and your H recognises there is a problem and is 'trying'. Good luck. LH
Hey LH:
You are so right and last night was the night. How does one overcome the feeling that it's obligatory, though? It seems to me that what's going through H's head is: "I told the C I would do this one more time before Wednesday and by God, I will." Where's the desire in that?
We have another appt tomorrow and I've written up something I want to read to him at the C's office. Part of it goes:
On the 2nd night of ‘initiation,’ [the C asked that you let me know] an hour before, but you didn’t. You went in for your shower, I went to bed. I wasn’t ready and definitely was not aroused. Yes, you did get me to that state but it wasn’t like it was on Wednesday when the anticipation really built up because of knowing beforehand. I sensed a big difference in you, too, from Wednesday to Monday. You weren't as relaxed, there was no sense of fun or happiness about it.
I honestly thought you would choose Saturday night after going out and having a fun time, we were relaxed and in good moods. I was so looking forward to making love to you that night.
It’s not like you have to come right and say, “OK, tonight’s the night.” But some sort of subtle hint would be appreciated. I need some kind of clue, I don’t have ESP. You’re so closed off; I never get any indication that you’re turned on. I continue to believe that contrary to what you say, nothing about me gets you aroused.
You know – it’s OK to tell your wife she excites you. It’s OK to have fun. It’s OK to have the lights on and ‘talk’ during sex.
I figure he's more inclined to listen and absorb while we're with the C, because the C will question him about it.
I will say one thing, in this marriage I'm much more inclined to speak up when something bothers me. In my 1st marriage I was too intimidated by my Ex to say anything and by the time the M reached year 20 or so, I just didn't care enough anymore.
This time it's different and I have no problem in speaking out. Now, the problem is getting through to my H that I am NOT his previous wives.
Hi Granite, I just wanted to say that I have been where you are. I personally think that the pressure they put on themselves overrides any sexy thoughts or feelings, to the point that they in effect talk themselves out of sex entirely. I really believe that's what happened Sat night..he knew you wanted sex and, worse, were expecting it and right now that is a death wish on his libido.
It took me a long time to get across to my H what desire and passion mean to me. And that I am not a faucet that he can turn on and off at his will. He can't treat me like a friend all day and then BAM! want me to switch to red hot lover when he deems the time right. I need the anticipatory foreplay, as you do. I had to tell him time and time again, in gory detail, what this meant to me and what I would love him to do. I could literally see and feel the tenseness as he tried it out the first few times. It is not natural to him, but nonetheless he is good at it!
I think that you two are on the right track with the counseling. You will get there, but it is going to be a rough road. I know it is so tempting to get your hopes up, but try to stay realistic and realize that this is a major change that is going to occur in your relationship and it will take time and tears to make it a reality. I have often thought that getting our sex life back on track was a Two steps forward, one step back thing. The end result is that we are moving forward but in a slow and halting fashion, with lots of bumps and potholes along the way.
Also, and I don't mean this to in ANY way discourage you, but I think you need to consider the fact that your H's libido might stay low, even after the counseling. I agree that his former relationships have done a number on his confidence but he played his part in it, too. The fact that he allowed the sex to take a nosedive in his first marriage, with little to no complaint from him, is an indication to me that it might not be that great of a physical need for him. I'm CERTAIN that it bothered him, though. I guess what I am saying is to keep your expectations realistic and to prepare yourself for the possibility that his libido might not ever be that of a "normal" man.(whatever THAT is, ha ha!) I now have a satisfying (though not perfect) sex life with my H, after years of heartache. I am so envious of you--I wish we had pounced on the problem when it first appeared, as you two are! That is so smart of you..
I think this letter may need some modification as it seems a bit too accusatory and complaining. That might upset your H too much and put him off. I mean think how you would feel if he wrote a similar thing to you. It is a good idea to write something down but try and put it as positively as possible, although still being honest of course. You should say something nice to start off with tho, to set the tone. Don't talk negatively about your H , and avoid using generalisations eg "You’re so closed off; I never get any indication that you’re turned on". Talk about how something specific made you feel. For example: when you didn't give me any advance warning you planned to initiate sex I felt pressured to go ahead even though I was not really in the mood myself, as I had spent all day trying not to get aroused as I didn't want to feel disappointed/frustrated, consequently I did not find it as satisfying as I would have if I had more time to think about it in advance.
Hope this is good advice, I got it out of some self help book or other. Always use "I" statements. But I agree with you that you should talk about this with the C present. Keep up the being nice bit too. Remember he is trying (very trying!). Actually I just made up that bit above about you not being in the mood because you had spent all day trying not to get in it.But I guess that is what I do, and I am thinking you may be the same. So if this is true then the point is you will be more ready for spontaneous sex when it becomes a more regular occurance, and if you do feel like it and make a move you don't get shot down in flames.
Anyway remember put all your rant into positive "I" statements
Quote: You weren't as relaxed, there was no sense of fun or happiness about it.
I honestly thought you would choose Saturday night after going out and having a fun time, we were relaxed and in good moods. I was so looking forward to making love to you that night.
You know – it’s OK to tell your wife she excites you. It’s OK to have fun. It’s OK to have the lights on and ‘talk’ during sex.
You can say all that. Here is my translation:
When you are in a happy and relaxed mood at the time you initiate I feel as if you are enjoying the sex as much as I do. I feel that sex should be as much fun as the other things we do together, and that we should take our time and talk or joke while we do it. When it is too rushed and serious I feel that you do not much enjoy it, then I feel worried that this may be because you do not really find me attractive.
That's just to give you an idea of how it works by the way, I am just guessing at your feelings based on what you said.
Maybe you could give your letter to the counsellor to read first and ask him if he thinks you have expressed yourself well.
Well that's enough advice for now. I'm going to post something on my own thread and you can come give me advice to get me back!
Quote: he knew you wanted sex and, worse, were expecting it and right now that is a death wish on his libido.
Interesting thought. I don't *think* I gave off any anticipatory vibes. I didn't say or do anything overtly that I thought would have given the impression. I did say that I'd had a really fun evening and he concurred that he'd had fun, too. That was all that was said. Ah well . . .
Quote: He can't treat me like a friend all day and then BAM! want me to switch to red hot lover when he deems the time right. I need the anticipatory foreplay, as you do.
And for me, just a wink of the eye or a raising of an eyebrow (or some such 'sign') is enough to set my mind into high gear. My imagination does a wonderful job of priming the pump, so to speak. This is what happened last Wednesday, when the C made my H commit to having sex that night. We were both well-primed by the appointed time. I don't understand why knowing in advance on that night affected my H differently.
Quote: You will get there, but it is going to be a rough road. I know it is so tempting to get your hopes up, but try to stay realistic and realize that this is a major change that is going to occur in your relationship and it will take time and tears to make it a reality.
I have no doubt it will be difficult and as you say it's two steps forward and one step back. I can be patient with slow progress because it *is* progress.
Quote: I don't mean this to in ANY way discourage you, but I think you need to consider the fact that your H's libido might stay low, even after the counseling.
I suppose it depends on one's definition of low. To me, once a month was not only low it was unacceptable to me. During session with C, H agreed. To others, once or twice a week is low and yet that's fine for me and with encouragement from C, my H agreed that once or twice a week was entirely reasonable and furthermore, he also agreed it was something he could see himself doing.
And yet, here is where my feelings are conflicted. In SSM, Michele advises the LD spouses to "Just do it" whether one feels like it or not; that once into it, it gets better. OK. I can see that, but I sure don't want *my* H doing it just because he feels obligated to do it. I want him to do it because he desires me and I turn him on.
Quote: I agree that his former relationships have done a number on his confidence but he played his part in it, too. The fact that he allowed the sex to take a nosedive in his first marriage, with little to no complaint from him, is an indication to me that it might not be that great of a physical need for him.
Actually I think he did put up a fight and that was when the ex started sleeping with the baby in the bed. And I knew him first only about 1-1.5 yrs prior to his first marriage and believe me, the phrase might not be that great of a physical need for him. definitely did NOT apply to him. The first ex pulled some rotten stuff on him in his efforts to see his son (who was only 5 or 6 at the time), telling the court outright lies that the court chose to believe over my H. And the laundry list of all this goes on and on.
I know that we can't change the past, but he has some nasty, powerful memories. He needs to forgive himself and accept the fact that they are just that. Only memories.
Quote: I guess what I am saying is to keep your expectations realistic
I'm trying. I do love him very much and I'm hoping that in addition to our shared issue, the therapy will help him become a happier person overall.
Thanks for listening and I will definitely fill you in on what transpires tomorrow. I'm debating now whether to read the 'letter' to him tonight so he has time to mull over what I intend to take up tomorrow night, rather than blind-siding him with it at the C session.
I think this letter may need some modification as it seems a bit too accusatory and complaining. . . That might upset your H too much and put him off. I mean think how you would feel if he wrote a similar thing to you. It is a good idea to write something down but try and put it as positively as possible, although still being honest of course.
Completely correct, Jiji. What I posted was stream of consciousness ramblings that I have been editing and revising all day. I do know about putting statements like I have into the form using "I" (I feel/ I am/ ) Little by little, I'm going back over the letter and doing this as the last thing I want is for it to sound accusatory.
Quote: When you didn't give me any advance warning you planned to initiate sex I felt pressured to go ahead even though I was not really in the mood myself, as I had spent all day trying not to get aroused as I didn't want to feel disappointed/frustrated
See, the problem with me is that I'm always in the mood whenever he's around. Seriously, though, you hit a nerve. I do find myself tamping down my feelings so as not to be disappointed and by the time it gets to -- say 8pm -- and I've gotten no indication that he's even remotely interested, everything goes into ShutDown mode.
Quote: Hope this is good advice
It is. Thank you. And I will be revising my letter accordingly.
Quote: Keep up the being nice bit too. Remember he is trying
Being nice to him and doing nice things for him are like second nature to me. I love him so much that at times I think I love him too much. Is that possible?
Quote: Maybe you could give your letter to the counsellor to read first and ask him if he thinks you have expressed yourself well.
You think so? I don't want my H to think I'm doing a surprise attack on him. I mean I do intend to voice some of my concerns tomorrow anyway. You think I should let the C see what I wrote and let C take it from there?
Quote: Well that's enough advice for now. I'm going to post something on my own thread and you can come give me advice to get me back!
I appreciate the time and effort you (and the others) put into posting on this thread. It's informative and enlightening and I would never post to get you back.
Hi Rose, Here's the thing with the expecting sex--it is inherent to marriage. There is NO WAY for him to not feel pressured (or any LD spouse for that matter) because that's what happens in marriages--you have sex with each other! So I totally believe you that you were not giving off any vibes but nonetheless I betcha he was feeling under the gun to make a good day even better. Why not ask him tomorrow? You could say that you felt it would have been a perfect time and was he having any thoughts one way or another? Be sure and ask if he was putting pressure on himself to perform.
I am glad that you were not discouraged by what I said. I think that it sounds as if you two actually have a pretty well matched libido--if both of you ideally want it twice per week, then that is a do-able goal. Much better than when one partner wants it 10 times as much as the other, right!
Jiji has given you some awesome advice about the letter. I don't know when you are going to give it to him, but here is what I would do. I personally think that letters are too long and "wordy" for most guys to really absorb. Not to downplay men's general level of intelligence, lol, but I do think they tune out after a while. So if it were me, I would make a list of bulleted items and say to him: "Honey I have a list of things that I want to go over at counseling tomorrow. Would you like to take a look at it in advance, or just wait til then?" That way, he doesn't sense a huge R talk coming on. The threat of that will surely make him shut down and tune out, you know how men are!
Regarding the "just do it"...well, I agree with you. I don't think any person, male or female, likes the thought of their partner just doing it. It makes me feel like, Oh brother forget the whole thing if THAT'S your motivation. On the other hand, Michele does talk about how in some people the desire comes AFTER the arousal. So he might have to be physically aroused (i.e., an erection) before he starts feeling desire. My H does not act like this all the time, but I can tell right away on the times when his desire is low and he is needing some help from me to get him jump started. It has taken a toll on my confidence but I am slowly accepting that this is just HIM and I love him however he is.
And I know you love your H to pieces too, so go easy in that letter, girlfriend! Just kiddin.
From an LD perspective, I found the one statement you made very interesting:
Quote: In SSM, Michele advises the LD spouses to "Just do it" whether one feels like it or not; that once into it, it gets better. OK. I can see that, but I sure don't want *my* H doing it just because he feels obligated to do it. I want him to do it because he desires me and I turn him on.
This is hard to explain to an HD. When an LD person is 'getting back into the saddle' so to speak, it does sometimes take supreme effort. And the first few times, there may not be a lot of 'desire' for you per se. But the fact that your H was able to overcome his demons, his supressed anger at past events in his life, and still be able to have sex with you I think is monumental. There is a lot of stuff going on inside of him that has absoutely nothing to do with you. And for you, he was able to put all that aside and make an effort... and actually follow through with it!
If you can give him a little room to find his footing again, so to speak, I think you will find that 'practice makes perfect.' You know? Try to be as encouraging and as patient with him right now as you can be. I think you shouldn't read that letter at all. As an LD person, if my H read something like that to me when we were first 'just doing it,' it would have comepletely taken the wind out of my sails. I would have been devastated.
I think you should just continue to encourage him at this point. I think you should tell him how great you thought it was that he was able to 'follow through' on his assignment. You certainly don't have to think it was the greatest sex in the world, because it probably wasn't, but at this point, at least for him, he's doing all he can. Be patient with him. It's going to get better.
I think Michele's point in saying 'just do it,' isn't so much for the HD as it is for the LD in encouraging them to dive in. I think if you come off even remotely critical right now, you are going to make things much worse on yourself.
I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion. But give him time to gain confidence. I'll bet any amount of money he's supremely scared right now. Give him some time to enjoy his small victory here. Just get back into the groove of having sex on a regular basis for awhile. Once his confidence is built up a little, you can then start to make suggestions on what you like and how you like it.
I don't know, this is just my opinion. But again, I'd bag the letter altogether and just be as supportive as you can for now.
Yes, I'm following up on my own message. Just got off the phone with H (we speak every day during his lunch hour). He asks, "Are you still tingling today?" I thought for a moment and phrased my next comments along the line of Jiji's suggestion: when you didn't give me any advance warning I was basically in ShutDown mode and wasn’t as ‘primed’ as I would have been if I had more time to think about it in advance.
I then went on to point out that he seemed more serious last night
When you are in a happy and relaxed mood at the time you initiate I feel as if you are enjoying the sex as much as I do. When it is too serious I feel that you do not much enjoy it, then I feel worried that this may be because you do not really find me attractive.
I didn't use these exact words but paraphrased.
He apologized for not cluing me in beforehand and told me that he *did* have fun. Hm....could have fooled me. (No. I didn't really say that. )
He asked me if I wanted to take last night back. Huh??? I replied, "Oh, you mean have fun again tonight?" Well, no, that wasn't what he meant. Then he got all quiet. Should I have lied and said all was great? Somehow I don't think that's the answer, either. <sigh>
We decided that we need some sort of sign between us, something to serve as a subtle clue. Winking is out because he does that all the time.
We ended the phone call with several ILYs and "I'll see you after work." I guess this is what was meant in a previous message as "Two steps forward, one step back."
This is what happened last Wednesday, when the C made my H commit to having sex that night. We were both well-primed by the appointed time. I don't understand why knowing in advance on that night affected my H differently. 
