Tricked into seperation

[LolaL]

I think, speaking from the legal aspect, you need to now worry about the paperwork. I mean, I do agree you need to see and speak to your children, and you need to have paperwork in place to protect yourself financially if that is an issue.

However, whether or not she files for divorce cannot be an issue at this time. It is only a piece of paper. If she files, it can be dismissed. If it is finalized and you reconcile, you can always remarry.

My friend, patience is a virtue. This is not something that is going to be solved quickly, and putting a time frame on it for her can be viewed as controlling behavior by her. Getting the bishop to talk to her, IMHO, is a little sneaky and underhanded. Don't get anyone else to do your dirty work.

Go back and read her email again. Regardless of what she has said, and if it is true or not, this is how SHE perceives it. Listen to her. Validate her. Don't make promises because she really doesn't want to hear them right now. Don't tell her what you are doing differently. Wait and see if she notices.

If you come on too strong, you will push her into a corner and she will fight that much harder to get away from you. If she wants a divorce, that is what she wants, and you have to acknowledge that. If you disagree, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. She does not want the argument right now. Don't bring it up. If she does, listen, and validate. Nothing else. Don't try to talk her out of it. Two words "I understand." period.

[lonelywolf]

Thanks LolaL.

That's good advice. That's my biggest problem, I always have to argue the point (heck - my Ph.D. is in Rhetoric, the study of arguing well).

That's one reason I'm going to go dark in talking to her. I'm still sending letters to the kids (all the kids) and videos, and she'll see those. Hopefully, she'll notice that I'm paying more attention to the kids, reforming myself, and paying down the debt. But I'm not sure how any communication directly with her will work, because at this point she's reading everything I say in an angry tone.

I have told her that I understand (and I think I do somewhat - I've had long talks with my mother, who has almost left my father many times, but decided not to - she's explained what my wife is likely thinking), but she's said she doesn't believe me and thinks I'm a liar.

I do believe I have to go to last resort, because we're seperated and she has declared her intention to file for divorce.

My mother says the best thing I can do is make my wife wonder about me, and give her time to start missing me. As long as I communicate with her, she just gets angry, even at a purely business e-mail.

[InPassing]

Thanks for the comments, all. Some more info:

One thing to realize is that I proposed (about a month ago) that she give me a year to prove myself, pay down the debt, find a good job, etc. She did not respond - in that e-mail above she states her immediate plans are to file for divorce. So she's blown that option off the table as far as I can tell.

I can't see how she's telling me what I need to do to change and win her back ....

Seems like people who are in your wife's situation, very rarely even give hints about what you need to do. and they pretty much never use words like "this is how you can win me back".

I think you need to stop looking for a statement like that, and look more at the overall context.

You said you think she has "blown that option off the table".
Well, lets look at what she wrote specifically:

What specifically are you repenting of? Have you visited your bishop and confessed? Has he given you a program of repentance to follow? Frankly I am skeptical, Two months of repentance doesn't seem enough after 11 years of out of control spending,...

She just didnt say "you're scum goodbye". She took the time to ask you, "show me what you have done, SPECIFICALLY".
She took the time to ask you, "what specific plan are you following?"

She also said, "2 months.. doesnt seen enough".
Ask yourself "enough for what?" It could mean a lot of things.

going on only what you have written just recently, you have in essence told your wife, "i'm trying really hard, trust me".

Most people in her position WILL IGNORE THAT COMPLETELY.
"trying really hard", does not impress, after 10+ years of bad memories.

She wants to know HOW are you "trying really hard" SPECIFICALLY.
She wants to know how you are going to be held accountable for your "trying". Which is why she asked about what specific plan you are following.

You are in a waaay better position than you realize. Most pepole's spouses, in your wife's position, wouldnt give a crap what you are doing. Yet she's taking the time to ask you about it.

Last bit of advice: she has a major problem with your anger. She commented about that, very very strongly, in the letter you quoted.

The #1, RIGHT NOW, thing, you need to do as "a 180", is to drop all anger from your communications with her. Beyond just looking at yourself to see if you "feel", angry... read and re-read everything you write to her, to ask yourself, "could she think this even SOUNDS angry?"


And you need to apologize to her. Briefly. Apologize for badgering her, and the anger, and tell her you have resolved not to communicate to her in that way any more.
Dont ask for anything else. Just apologize, and state that intention,and drop it for a while.


She may file. she may not. that shouldnt change you improving yourself, in the areas she has made valid complaints about you.

[lonelywolf]

As far as the bishop - I didn't ask him to talk to her. He also said he's not going to tell her what to do, but since she's in his congregation, he wants to get both sides of the story. While he said he will tell her that marriage is important and should be saved if at all possible, he is not going to take sides or tell her to reconcile with me, so I don't think it will appear to be underhanded. It also didn't originate with me - he's new (just took over the congregation last Sunday) and heard about it from the old bishop and just wants to hear both sides so he can be aware.

[lonelywolf]

Thanks for the comments, all. Some more info:

One thing to realize is that I proposed (about a month ago) that she give me a year to prove myself, pay down the debt, find a good job, etc. She did not respond - in that e-mail above she states her immediate plans are to file for divorce. So she's blown that option off the table as far as I can tell.

I can't see how she's telling me what I need to do to change and win her back ....

Seems like people who are in your wife's situation, very rarely even give hints about what you need to do. and they pretty much never use words like "this is how you can win me back".

I think you need to stop looking for a statement like that, and look more at the overall context.

You said you think she has "blown that option off the table".
Well, lets look at what she wrote specifically:

What specifically are you repenting of? Have you visited your bishop and confessed? Has he given you a program of repentance to follow? Frankly I am skeptical, Two months of repentance doesn't seem enough after 11 years of out of control spending,...

She just didnt say "you're scum goodbye". She took the time to ask you, "show me what you have done, SPECIFICALLY".
She took the time to ask you, "what specific plan are you following?"

She also said, "2 months.. doesnt seen enough".
Ask yourself "enough for what?" It could mean a lot of things.

going on only what you have written just recently, you have in essence told your wife, "i'm trying really hard, trust me".

Most people in her position WILL IGNORE THAT COMPLETELY.
"trying really hard", does not impress, after 10+ years of bad memories.

She wants to know HOW are you "trying really hard" SPECIFICALLY.
She wants to know how you are going to be held accountable for your "trying". Which is why she asked about what specific plan you are following.

You are in a waaay better position than you realize. Most pepole's spouses, in your wife's position, wouldnt give a crap what you are doing. Yet she's taking the time to ask you about it.

Last bit of advice: she has a major problem with your anger. She commented about that, very very strongly, in the letter you quoted.

The #1, RIGHT NOW, thing, you need to do as "a 180", is to drop all anger from your communications with her. Beyond just looking at yourself to see if you "feel", angry... read and re-read everything you write to her, to ask yourself, "could she think this even SOUNDS angry?"

And you need to apologize to her. Briefly. Apologize for badgering her, and the anger, and tell her you have resolved not to communicate to her in that way any more.
Dont ask for anything else. Just apologize, and state that intention,and drop it for a while.

She may file. she may not. that shouldnt change you improving yourself, in the areas she has made valid complaints about you.

She has made valid complaints. I did apologize - the last e-mail I sent her was an apology. However, one reason I want to go dark is that I think at this point, she reads everything (even the apologies) as angry.

Her temper was worse than mine, FWIW. But I'm the one who is going to have to change - I realize that now. I took an anger management class and am going to get some counselling in that area soon. She knows this as well.

Perhaps, after a few months of her seeing only the nice, loving letters I write the kids, and the videos I send them, she might stop percieving me as an angry monster. I never was one, but that's how she sees it now.

But it's true - I realize that e-mail has more info on how to win her back than I realized. Thank you for pointing that out.

[LolaL]

Okay that is fine. The bishop is just going to offer council then.

I agree that you should apologize. But drop it then. You can't smack someone in the head, apologize, smack them again, and expect them to forgive you.

I had an analogy I used to use.

You have been at this job for a long time. Its starting to wear thin on you, and you are tired of feeling unappreciated, being yelled at, no one noticing you and complimenting you for a job well done.

You decide you have had enough, and you leave.

But then your boss begins to beg you to come back, the office isn't the same without you, NO ONE brews a meaner cup of coffee, the other staff can't read his handwriting.

You have a few choices. Obviously, you can say yeah no. You had your chance. I'm done.

Or you can go back and take a leap of faith.

But because you have longevity with the job, you might want to consider going back. But first, you want to observe a bit and find out what is going to change.

Would you make that decision after only one day? Probably not. And that is just about a job.

Marriage is completely different. For whatever reason, your wife feels as if she has been betrayed, and she wants to quit. You just need to give her time to see if that is what she really wants.

[MrBond]

Wait a minute.

You're losing sight of what's important here. She left you and took the kids then is not letting you see them.

Get Family Services, go to a legal aid society, something pronto.

Stop all this talk about repenting, etc. From what it sounds like, she's jerking you around. I suspect she's seeing someone else and is planning to leave you flat without the kids.

Man up and get your kids back. If you don't stop the pity party and start showing some confidence in yourself, she's going to continue to walk all over you.

The first priority is your kids. Who knows what she and your IL are telling them. They could be saying you abused them for all you know. Get them back first.

[lonelywolf]

stuck808 -
that's why I finally contacted a lawyer. I'm still going to try to DB and DR and all that, but I have to talk to the kids, and if it takes a court order to do so, so be it.

We'll see how the initial consultation goes.

[MrBond]

Aside from that, insist on talking to your kids. They are yours after all.

[LolaL]

Even if you just make the effort to talk to them. Have records that you have tried to call. That way she cannot come back and say that you abandoned them.