Divorce not busted 3

[Orich]

I don't understand. How does she sense it? I am very careful, I am always afraid that I am being callous.

[givingitmyall]

I don't understand. How does she sense it? I am very careful, I am always afraid that I am being callous.

She KNOWS b/c it shows.

Remember when you were single and out in bars trying to score. Maybe there was a recent break up you had been through and you were trying to get back in the saddle so to speak. And you felt like you just had that stink of desperation on you that repelled all women. That's it...the stink of desperation.

[NoLongerHere]

Wise.

[ScifiGirl]

That's it...the stink of desperation.

Exactly GIMA. We women can smell desperation, fear and a lack of confidence a mile away. And don't even get me started on whether or not someone is being genuine or just trying to appease us. Just ask my hubby about that! LOL

I don't understand. How does she sense it?

Based on your response, I can only take it that you are in fact super-focusing on your W then?


Orich, It really sounds like you have some major issues going on above and beyond your M/R. Maybe you should earnestly consider seeing someone who can help you out with these issues. I'm not talking about someone who is all about the M and will fill your mind with what you want to hear such as the "hang in there, don't give up hope" talk. I'm talking about a qualified therapist/psychologist who can help you with your personal issues like the co-dependency and perhaps can even teach you detaching. I see you are banking heavily on the weekend at Retro almost as if it's the magic bullet or miracle cure. Honestly...What would you do if you go to Retro and W decides she is really through with you, the M and wants a D? I think the person you are right now would curl up in a corner and suck his thumb. You need to find yourself and be happy with yourself. That is what you should be super-focusing on right now. Like I said earlier; you can't depend on your W for your happiness. Don't feel badly if you can't comprehend this concept. Many others have difficulty understanding it at first. But once you do, your life will be so much richer.

Here is a clip that I think you should read on codependency as I feel it strongly pertains to you based on what you've written in these forums:

CODEPENDENCY:
"a specific condition that is characterized by preoccupation and extreme dependence — emotionally, socially and sometimes physically — on a person or object. Eventually, this dependency on another person [or object] becomes a pathological condition that affects the co-dependent in all other relationships"

You can visit the website for more information at: http://codependency101.com/

[ScifiGirl]

I had a bit of time so I am going to post this article on codependency.

Codependents are the ultimate example of a Persecution Complex description. They always feel victimized, oppressed, and self-sacrificial. Although codependents may feel they give an inordinate amount of responsibility, obligation, and worry for another and mistakenly feel like they are giving, giving, giving, in reality they are actually taking, taking, taking. The only thing a codependent person wants to hear from his unappreciative (of course, this is usually in his imagination) spouse is the words "I feel so guilty about everything you do for me".

However, in reality, codependents do very little for the healthy betterment of their relationships, or the wholeness and completeness of their lives. Whereas they think they are doing for everyone, they are actually doing for themselves. Every time they can feel over-giving and under-appreciated (their main goal), they climb higher up in their Ivory-Tower and feel justified in hugging themselves while they hang from their self-imposed crucifix. Codependents appear to be very poor givers, so wrapped up in their imagined glories and self-sacrifices that they never really, truly give genuine love and care just for the simple reason of giving it and not for the real reason behind why they do give and give. And what is that reason you ask? Codependents give only for two causes and one reason; to cause 'self-pity', and to cause 'manipulation' of those around him, for the reason of being able to embrace, nurture, and love themselves, and to feel safe and secure..

Although there are many, many books out there that attempt to explain the motives of codependent people, I have never found one that actually describes the reason behind what they do to my satisfaction! Sooooo, let me explain my theory (shut up and bear with me here!)...

As pack animals we are all somewhat codependent. But when codependency becomes the overriding force in a person's life they begin to do the exact opposite of what they honestly believe their goal is. Where most codependents think they are sacrificing themselves for everyone around them, what they are actually doing is distancing themselves and emotionally withdrawing from those around them, so coccooned they are in themselves and their own feelings of injustice. To contradict a lot of codependent books I am going to go out on a limb here and give my analysis of codependency: A codependent person—although it may appear that they are over-conscious and over-aware of others—in reality are only conscious of their own role in other's lives and not with the actual other person themselves. They only need to pre-occupy themselves with other's emotional well-being and feelings to see what their own status is to that other person, and how they fit in that person's life. Although the experts seem to claim that a codependent person is overly involved in other's moods, feelings, and emotional being, they actually are more astute to another's moods, feelings, and emotions only when it directly relates back to themselves so that they may analyze the role they play in that person's life. Many codependents have an intense need for acceptance and validation of who they are. They can be more selfish and self-involved then fiercely independent people are, as they are so engrossed in the role they play in other people's lives that they become obsessed with others' moods and well-being only as it relates to themselves.

Codependents lack in self-perception and can only identify who they are through that of a second person. They manifest 'who they are' only through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them...and without another they are unable to find their own identity. Codependents tend to latch onto partners because of this lack of being able to self-identify through themselves.

Thus, codependents become 'emotionally unavailable' or 'uncaring' to others, unless it is for the selfish reason of improving their own role in that person's life. Everything they do they do to pity themselves or to applaud themselves...nothing is done out of voluntary loving or freely given for the mere fact of truly caring for another. NOTHING! Everything that a codependent person does is done to further establish their self-pitying thoughts of 'overdoing' and of being taken advantage of and for granted, "I am so unappreciated around here, they treat me like their slave...", or their self-worshipping thoughts that they are perfect and well-respected for the 'good' or 'right things' that they do unto others. "I am a great person, see how I saved the day!" These thoughts are based on the fact that because they are overly concerned with the role they play in other's lives that they become more acutely aware of how others do or do not acknowledge what they do.

Basically, the codependents motives are all about gaining self-pity or gaining self-respect enough so that they can feel safe and comfortable enough to embrace their own inner soul and give much needed self-love to themselves. Just below the surface of every codependent is a lost and rejected child that doesn't feel that who they are themselves is worthy of love.

A codependent is so caught up in their own little "I am a self-sacrificing hero" fantasy that they have no idea that they have no real identity of their own, and are actually (and ironically) never really fully available to another (although they believe just the opposite). Codependents spend an inordinate amount of time hugging themselves and finding new ways to feel like they are abandoned and unappreciated, or acclaimed and heralded. They spend an elaborate amount of time planning ways to feel more damaged and martyred (so they can heroize themselves), and to do this they must worry more about making everyone but himself happy. They must be self-sacrificial. Although they feel that they are over-giving and over-doing, they actually do very little real emotional loving, or make themselves truly available to the people in their life. (It is hard to be there for somebody in an honest and genuine sense, when you are being bitter and indignant about the fact that you are there for them.) You can never love a codependent person enough, for they will not feel your love, they will only feel all the drummed up sacrifices they have done for others. A codependent person will not hear, "thank you, I appreciate that" but will seek out and concentrate his focus on all the non-acknowledged things that he does do, whereas most non-codependents will hear the "thank you" and not really get to worried over the fact that occasionally someone didn't acknowledge something they did for them. A codependent person very rarely recognizes genuine acts of true love and caring from their spouses, but rather is hyper-vigilant to their spouses negativities or requests (which the codependent person takes to mean 'more demands' on, and 'belittlement' of, them).

Codependent people have a huge hole in them that needs to be fixed. They find temporary relief via another person's redemption through them, as it allows them to redeem themselves when they see themselves through the other's eyes. This may possibly be the reason why codependents almost always choose mates that have 'problems'. They can find a temporary patch for their own 'hole' by fixing others'.

[aliveandkicking]

Fascinating. I see a lot of myself in there. Actually, a lot of people I can think of.

[Orich]

Thanks for all the input.
Scifigirl, I read your post on codependancy. While I'll admit that I do tend to derive my happiness through my W, I don't think I am as bad as your post suggests. I never thought that I was under appreciated, or that I was taken advantage of. I never self-worshipped, either. The way I look at it is that I have always had self-esteem issues, and when I found a woman who loved me, it "fixed" that issue. In that sense, what I fear most about splitting up is being lonely, that I will never find someone who would love me again. When we were doing well, it was never about me. I was studying for the Diaconate, and couldn't have done that without her support. I made sure that anyone who asked knew that I relied on her to be able to do it. I wanted people to know how truly wonderful she was, that she would make certain sacrifices for me. My problem was that after a while, I began to take her for granted. I got lazy figuring she would just pick up the slack. I don't think that fits neatly into what you are saying.
Maybe I understand co-dependancy incorrectly, but I thought it meant only that I couldn't derive happiness without the person I became dependent on, which is true for me.
Truly, my wife is a great person. She has her issues, and I think they have a lot to do with what's going on between us, but I have contributed to the problems as well. I think my difficulty with detachment is partly because I feel like my happiness is dependent on her, which I have to work on, but also because I know I hurt her and I feel guilty about that.
I don't know if i am explaining myself well, but basically I think where I need help is in realizing my own self worth.
In that vein, I am trying very hard not to show this "stench of desperation". She had to have sensed excitement in me when I was telling her about the scouting meeting I went to, because I am truly excited about it. I think I have a lot to give to my sons and other boys in the pack. I am trying to think of other things to do/get involved in to further focus on myself. Right now, I have only that and the gym really. Since I did derive my happiness through my wife, I have had very few activities that I have done or been involved with outside the marriage. Everything I did for fun was with her. When we were first together, she used to tell me that she wanted a R like her brother, him and his wife were inseperable, they did everything together. This was obviously fine by me, but unfortunately I have nothing now other than some fishing with an old friend to keep me occupied with myself.
So, yeah, I am in a low right now, I understand that I have to detach, having problems there because of my relying on W for my happiness, and I am putting a lot of hope on the retro weekend.
As far as the weekend is concerned, I still believe that deep down she wants to not break up the family. She has put up walls to protect herself from me after I hurt her. I am hoping for no more than a crack in that wall so we can truly talk to each other and see if we can work it out. I am not expecting to leave the place hand in hand skipping down the road to a happily ever after.
If there is no crack by the end of the weekend I will certainly be upset. However, I think i won't end up curled up into the fetal position. I have my two sons who need a strong father, and I will not let them down.

[Orich]

I am going to concentrate on at least one aspect of detaching that I think I can resolve. It occurs to me that almost every positive sign I have gotten from W was through text message. So, every time by phone beeps, I jump and my heart leaps, ultimately though, it only crashes back down when I find it is either someone else, or her without the message I am hoping for. I took the audible beep off the phone, so I will only look at the phone for messages once or twice during the day. If anyone needs me in an emergency they can either call my cell or my work phone. It's a small thing, but since I noticed it I realize it is something I can start to do.
BTW, I will not confront her on the facebook thing or the absence of her wedding rings. I won't even try to explain my parents' actions to her. If she opens up during our weekend, I will bring them up then. But for now, I am the strong silent type. As soon as the kids went to bed last night, I high-tailed it to the gym. When I returned she was in bed reading a book. I told her I was going to watch TV in the living room for a little while. Before I said this, I really contemplated asking her if she wanted to talk about anything. But I didn't. I watched TV, and she went to sleep.
I want to try to at least be on friendly terms going in to the weekend. If we go in there less stressed, maybe it will go better. Any thoughts on this? Our annual block party is this weekend, an event we both enjoy. I want to enjoy it this year as well. Maybe I should initiate a light conversation here and there?
Tomorrow night she is going out with friends and I am going to my IC. My parents are coming over to watch the kids. Should my folks say anything to her? They are hurting, too, and want to reach out to her. So far I have asked them not to. Would it be pursuing on my part if they talked to her about them, not me and her?
Thanks again.

[Thinker]

Fascinating. I see a lot of myself in there. Actually, a lot of people I can think of.

I see a lot of me as well - particularly a lot of the "Old Me" that I have spent the past 8 months rooting out. Seems to be a pretty common trap for people to fall into.

[Coach]

I want to try to at least be on friendly terms going in to the weekend. If we go in there less stressed, maybe it will go better. Any thoughts on this? Our annual block party is this weekend, an event we both enjoy. I want to enjoy it this year as well. Maybe I should initiate a light conversation here and there?

So make your mind up to enjoy it. Everything else you wrote is dependent on how your wife makes you feel. You still don't see how much you focus on your wife. Your wife is not responsible for your feelings, you are. Stop feeling so much and start thinking. Is what you are doing working? Maybe try something else that others have had success with. If it works keep it otherwise try something new.